ROCK ON Frank J. Dude!

Perhaps we could have a contest for that missing noun that you were too enraged to think of in that second-to-the-last paragraph?

I would help you with that noun, but I am not really sure what a noun is.

I downloaded some "School House Rock" videos off of KaZaa, I will look at them to see if they have any noun lovein' stuff in there that might help me out.

Jimbo

PS: I want to quit my job and go on welfare. This would give me more time to read your Blog and view porn. If I finish before you have a new post up, I will E-Mail you demanding more content faster like.

I just had a great idea! Could you include a random porn links somewhere on your page?

Uhhh... I just wet my pants. Bye!

#1 - Posted by: Jimbo on April 24, 2003 08:37 AM

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My esteemed spouse likes to test his integrity by reading propaganda from the other side. I make this suggestion from the sidelines.

If you must engage in this activity, please ensure the material is in paperback form. Frequent book flinging (with appropriate accompaniment) will ensue.

Violence in literature.

hln

#2 - Posted by: hln on April 24, 2003 09:25 AM

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In a perfect world Michael Moore would find himself giving the speech of his life. He's in front of a huge audience, all them his admirers. They're cheering him on. Rowdy "huzzahs" and "yippes" rising from the crowd with every word from his pudgy, unshaven face. His hair billowing wildly from under his hat. The crowd goes silent. It takes MM a second to realize the support has suddenly quieted. He looks around, sweat building on his brow. Then he spots them. To his right is a pack of tigers being ridden by chimpanzees in armor. Their bronze spears shining brighter than the perspiration on Moore's own head. The kill is swift. Moore has no chance of outrunning the skilled chimp tiger riders. He is speared and mauled in an orgy of nature's fury. The crowd is forced to watch in mute horror as their icon is devoured. Their hippy ways guaranteeing none of them are armed or willing to fight back against actual power. Thus a perfect world maintains balance by having tigers ridden by monkeys eat annoying media types.

#3 - Posted by: SSG B on April 24, 2003 09:57 AM

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i love your website. it makes me laugh my ass off. very few people in my social circles who understand my kind of humor. its nice to know others are out there.

#4 - Posted by: Carolyn on April 24, 2003 10:24 AM

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Jimbo: a noun is a person, place or thing. I.e., mother, watch, school.

Frank: No, you're right, it wasn't a very godly thing to do. Know what? I forgive you anyway. You're just so cute and loveable.

(I'm sure God forgives you too.)

#5 - Posted by: Minstrel on April 24, 2003 10:51 AM

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What kind of drugs was MM taking when he said that most of the people were liberals? I've searched far and wide for the enlightened liberals I used to see in the early '60s, but most of them have gone over to the dark side, beginning with the Vietnam War. Obviously he's talking about a nonexistent category.

Loved SSG B.'s little "perfect world" story - is it available on VHS/DVD?

#6 - Posted by: Bloodthirsty Warmonger on April 24, 2003 11:07 AM

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Frank, it's okay to send hate mail to the Anti-Christ. God is cool with that.

Jesus would do it Himself, but God told Him that He already saved the world once. Sending hate mail to Moore the Hutt would be redundant. ;-)

#7 - Posted by: Darth Cirrocu on April 24, 2003 11:22 AM

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Coined, I believe, by Acidman I propose the following noun be used for all references to Michael Moore:

FUCKNOZZLE

#8 - Posted by: Ralph Gizzip on April 24, 2003 11:57 AM

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you're kind of ugly yourself!!

#9 - Posted by: Mike on April 24, 2003 12:01 PM

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You've inspired me! The next spoof on my Web site is going to be Michael Moore doing a wedding toast. I just have to think of someone who would be stupid enough to ask Moore to be his best man. Oh, I got it — Tim Robbins. He and Suzi are finally gettin' hitched after living in sin for over a decade. No. That won't work. They'd appreciate his inappropriate comments — give him a big pat on the back. Maybe it will have to be his cousin Jethro or something.

Actually, this could be an entire series:

• Eulogy
  
• Valedictorian Address
  
• Keynote Speech
  
• Junior High Career Day Presentation
  
• Class Reunion Speech
  
• Celebrity Roast Speech
  
• Toastmasters Meeting
  

#10 - Posted by: Fritz on April 24, 2003 12:11 PM

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Yah! I would love to see Moore at a Toastmasters meeting! The bell would be going off, like, every second! Finally, the moderator would have to throw the bell at Moore's stupid fat head to shut him up!

Frank J., your stuff is a laugh riot!

#11 - Posted by: Frank L. on April 24, 2003 12:34 PM

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Just read Howard Dean's comments on the uncertainty of whether or not Iraq is better off without Saddam. Sounds like a good guy for a hate-on. Any way you could have Rumsfeld strangle or smart-water/concrete bomb the shit out of him?

#12 - Posted by: jose on April 24, 2003 12:53 PM

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OK. I made it an elementary school career day:
Michael Moore Ruins Elementary School Career Day

#13 - Posted by: Fritz on April 24, 2003 02:18 PM

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Fritz,
That's awesome. You should do a series of it.

Minstrel,
Thanks for calling me cute and loveable.

Mike,
No, you're ugly (and I know you're actually Michael Moore).

#14 - Posted by: Frank J. on April 24, 2003 02:33 PM

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Hum... I'd consider developing an actual media file to have MM get mauled by chimps on tigers. However the computing power required to do it would be far too great. To render MM in such a manner would probably require me to borrow time on the equipment used for the Human Genome mapping-thingy; he's just THAT huge.
However, a ream of 8x11 paper, a set of colored pencils, a digital camera, some high-quality stick figures (MM would actually be a oval to represent his hugeness) and some time maybe something could be done.
That or I'll put together a squad, kidnap some chimps and tigers, and train them to attack. Yes, that is a good idea as well.

#15 - Posted by: SSG B on April 24, 2003 03:12 PM

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Frank poses nude with rummy and monkey, news @ 11!

#16 - Posted by: doc on April 24, 2003 03:32 PM

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Stinki,

Thanks, for the thought, but please don't "help" with my career.

Love,

#17 - Posted by: Sarah on April 24, 2003 03:48 PM

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Right on, laughed my arse off here in the office.

#18 - Posted by: tim on April 24, 2003 04:40 PM

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Okay, apparently in Moore's world, not only are hippy leprechauns prancing around, but THE ONION is considered "real news". At the bottom of his web site (I went there to see how out of touch with reality he really is) is the line "check out the real news..." with a list of liberal web sites giving "news" and The Onion is listed first. For those who don't know, The Onion is a satirical news web site.

#19 - Posted by: Scott on April 24, 2003 04:40 PM

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Michael Moore would be a prime candidate for my Open Season on idiots.

#20 - Posted by: Geoffrey on April 24, 2003 05:31 PM

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I have a suggestion for the missing noun: Bitch Monkey. It's a perfectly good noun phrase and seems to both have a proper amount of venom and still encompass things that others hate. Anyone who disagrees is a bitch monkey.

#21 - Posted by: LibertyBob on April 24, 2003 05:31 PM

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I'd suggest getting all your Michael Moore bashing in as soon as possible.

According to my estimates, Michael Moore will soon become large enough to collapse in on himself and form an event horizon (popularly known as a 'black hole'). The good news is that nothing escapes the immense gravitational attraction at the center of an event horizon, so there's no way we'll ever have to suffer through his blithering idiocies. The bad news is that his immense gravitational attraction (I can't believe that I'm putting 'Michael Moore' and 'attraction' on the same page) will start to consume the planet. For the sake of mankind, we need to tie him to a rocket and send him into space. Maybe we can use him as a ballistic missile magnet and save a bunch of money on 'Star Wars'.

#22 - Posted by: aelfheld on April 24, 2003 05:47 PM

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I would like to see MM torn to pieces by starving BABOONS! Baboons are much more aggressive than chimps and would be able to gnaw through Moore's rhino haunches in no time flat!

Of course, no self-respecting baboon would want to eat Moore, starving or not. They would have to automatronic baboons of some kind. Hey, how about if we redo the sci-fi flick West World, with MM? The gunfighter would be played by Donald Rumsfeld, and we can throw in the robot baboons just for fun!

#23 - Posted by: Frank L. on April 24, 2003 05:51 PM

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Aelfheld, you forget that his idiocies have no substance, and are completely removed from all of our physical laws. He'd never stop, AND he'd have a "captive" audience.

Then again, once he does become a degenerate mass (I LOVE that term!), we could steer him through Hollyweird, cut down on the number of idiots.

#24 - Posted by: Syd Bartrett on April 24, 2003 05:59 PM

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Too funny. I came in too late to get involved in the little conversation you guys are having on MM, so I'll just watch from the sidelines...but soon enough I'll get a drawing of those chimps riding tigers, and email to Frank for all you to enjoy!

-Jeff

#25 - Posted by: Jeff on April 24, 2003 06:25 PM

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Holy crap. That was funny.

All right, that's it. You've given me no choice in the matter! You...are going on the blogroll!

#26 - Posted by: Big Dog on April 24, 2003 07:39 PM

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Frank, you've outdone yourself again...excellent!

And Ralph, I'm pretty sure that the first use of the word "fucknozzle" in the English language can be attributed to Michele :)

#27 - Posted by: Odie on April 24, 2003 08:06 PM

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Only distantly related to Michael Moore, but this is important!:

Maybe I'm just an idiot, but in light of the Dixie Chicks nude cover photo I'm thinking maybe we can label Shania Twain a traitor and she'll pose naked on a magazine somewhere too. At least, I hope so! I'm travelling throughout the internet tonight with this goal in mind! Also, I think she lives in France! Boo, down with Shania Twain! Boycott Shania Twain!!

Thank you. Please help.

#28 - Posted by: Greyhawk on April 24, 2003 08:35 PM

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YES!!! Boycott Shania Twain! She has said traiterous things! I'll burn my girlfriend's Shania CD. And since I'm a subscriber, Playboy will surely listen to my request that they are the magazine for her to defend herself.

Okay, I like the chimps on tigers Frank L. But the baboons could defintaly have a role in the slaughter. How about they are the infantry for the mounted chimps? The baboons begin the assault and force MM into a "run" (to our eyes it would be more like the movement of an anemone). When he turns to flee the tiger-chimp cav moves in for the glorious kill.
I actually like that idea more because it would allow the hippy crowd to see what happens when proper tactics are used.
And maybe some howler monkeys to provide their own special artillery bombardment?

#29 - Posted by: SSG B on April 24, 2003 08:52 PM

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Golly! I always thought I hated Michael Moore.

Well, I guess I still think that I hate Michael Moore. But I think you hate Michael Moore more. And, um, better.

Any reply yet?

#30 - Posted by: Andrew S. on April 24, 2003 09:03 PM

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So I'm sitting here in this very quiet, very straight kinda pubic place reading your Mikey Moore piece. The sensation of trying to bottle up laughter that normally would have me snorting on the floor practically made my head and chest explode. Honestly, I think I almost blew up. That's how spontaneous human combustion happens ya know.

#31 - Posted by: BAM on April 24, 2003 09:25 PM

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Damn, man! I didn't make it past your first paragraph before I laughed so hard I choked. Are you trying to kill me?

:-)

#32 - Posted by: Iron Fist on April 24, 2003 09:30 PM

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Bill Whittle,
You are wise and eloquent as always. I do feel ashamed now.

And no, Andrew, no reply yet, because, as Bill pointed out, I've reduced him to a weeping, quivering mess.

And, yes, Iron Fist, the goal of my site is to eventually kill someone. I added the donation buttons to help pay for legal fees when it occurs.

#33 - Posted by: Frank J. on April 24, 2003 09:42 PM

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It's one of those posts that makes me want to start my own website, just so I could link to it and look clever by doing so, and then pathetically suck up to you so as to increase my status even more by pretending to know you personally.
Goals are good things.
Did I mention I like this post? Yepper.

#34 - Posted by: hikikomorii on April 24, 2003 09:49 PM

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I just realized that my previous remarks could be erroneously construed as implied insults to anyone else who has commented or linked to this post. Let me assure you all, who I am quite convinced could beat my ass all the way back to the stone age, that this is not the case and is just another example of what a sad, sad little coward I am.
Let this serve as my disclaimer, then.

#35 - Posted by: hikikomorii on April 24, 2003 09:56 PM

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Frank - I helped with the Glenn Reynolds thing. Please help with the Shania Twain thing! (See above) I'm going away now, spreading the word...

#36 - Posted by: Greyhawk on April 24, 2003 10:17 PM

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This is the funniest thing you've ever written. Hate letters should be a regular feature.

#37 - Posted by: Doug on April 24, 2003 10:38 PM

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No luck on finding out about that noun thing.

Keep trying random words until you find one you like.

I know how it is though. I don't like all words either. I always say that it is better to use words that you like.

#38 - Posted by: Jimbo on April 24, 2003 10:51 PM

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YEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAA!! THAT was beautiful! Takes a whole lotta to render ME impressed. Whew, WOW! look out Misha :)

#39 - Posted by: SondraK on April 24, 2003 11:06 PM

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Did Bill Whittle just admit he thinks of you, Frank, while he's lying in bed at night?
Hmm.

Anyhoo-love the letter---love the replies just as much. This is becoming one of my favorite sites.

#40 - Posted by: serenity on April 24, 2003 11:43 PM

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I wanna read a bona fide Bill Whittle hate letter! Bill, Martin Sheen must called you a willfully sentimental nationalist fool (let's just say); give us a rebuttal to that mush-maned chief expectorate!!!

#41 - Posted by: Tuning Spork on April 24, 2003 11:51 PM

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must = just, btw

#42 - Posted by: on April 24, 2003 11:53 PM

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I am laughing so hard-great letter. Now tell me your thoughts on Susan Sarandon...

Greyhawk: FYI I think Shania lives in Switzerland.

#43 - Posted by: Mom on April 25, 2003 01:18 AM

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Perhaps if we make it a bit more artsy-fartsy, the Left will take it as constructive criticism:

Bronze spears catch the light.
Tigers with monkeys mounted.
Moore now somewhat less.

Orion

#44 - Posted by: Orion on April 25, 2003 03:18 AM

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A Switzer!!! Even worse!! Booooo!!

#45 - Posted by: Greyhawk on April 25, 2003 04:05 AM

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THE MISSING NOUN IS: BLIVET
This was a common term around High School back in the late 30's, and it seems quite apropos under the circumstances. Please use this in your next post, with my compliments. I can think of no better description, in fact the best single-word you can use in this situation.
Definition: BLIVET (noun), five pounds of shit in a three pound bag. (pl.) BLIVETS
As in: Michael Moore is the Hollywood's best-known, but most distressing example of a blivet.
(Funked-out & Wagnalled, new illustrated edition coming out in 2010)

#46 - Posted by: Howard E. Morseburg on April 25, 2003 04:13 AM

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The missing noun is "whited sepulcher"

a person inwardly corrupt or wicked but outwardly or professedly virtuous or holy.

#47 - Posted by: The Meatriarchy on April 25, 2003 08:37 AM

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I can't tell you how ashamed I am that Michael Moore is from my home state of Michigan...

#48 - Posted by: AntFreeze on April 25, 2003 09:07 AM

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Definition: BLIVET (noun), five pounds of shit in a three pound bag. (pl.) BLIVETS
As in: Michael Moore is the Hollywood's best-known, but most distressing example of a blivet.

This is Michael fucking Moore we're talking about! By my reckoning that's at least 200 blivets! By all means, use the plural in your example. But I am all for the choice of verb.

#49 - Posted by: Shalegrey on April 25, 2003 10:32 AM

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Damn frank, BILL WHITTLE left an outstanding comment. You are BIG time man. M

#50 - Posted by: MM on April 25, 2003 10:48 AM

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Bill Whittle get all his inspiration from reading my site :)

#51 - Posted by: Frank J. on April 25, 2003 11:02 AM

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Orion: Moore now somewhat less?? HAHAHAHHAHA!!

Frank: you're friggin' brilliant, what can i say? thank you for making my work day funnier than it otherwise would have been (even if i got in trouble cause i laughed)

beca

#52 - Posted by: Miss Beca on April 25, 2003 12:19 PM

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Golly!

#53 - Posted by: FormerLiberal on April 25, 2003 01:29 PM

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warmonger,

I believe that MM was doing a "Molly Ivans", which consists of a fistfull of Quualudes washed down with a quart of cheap gin.

MonkeyPants
Imperial Falconer

#54 - Posted by: MonkeyPants on April 25, 2003 02:22 PM

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Blivet is good...but, as was pointed out, it's still a bit reduced in scale from what we're talkin' about. When regarding Mickey Moore-on, you've gotta think in larger terms.

In honor of the Leftish multi-culti atmosphere, I propose: multiblivet !!

You heard it here first.

Frank J.: A complimentary post from Bill Whittle, no less!! You are drawin' some kinda deep water, man!! Outstandingly funny hate-rant...more, more! Encore, encore!

#55 - Posted by: JB on April 25, 2003 04:00 PM

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In respect of the missing noun, may I suggest "Hippopotamus of Hypocrisy?"

#56 - Posted by: Michael on April 25, 2003 06:54 PM

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Megablivet

#57 - Posted by: thejones on April 25, 2003 10:04 PM

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I do. I get a blivetload of inspiration.

#58 - Posted by: Bill Whittle on April 26, 2003 02:52 AM

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This is truly one of the funniest articles I've read in quite a while.

It actually brought tears to my eyes( as opposed to bringing tears to my eyebrows ).

I look forward to more rants.

#59 - Posted by: wunderkind54 on April 26, 2003 10:38 AM

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Thank you very much for your humorous site. My friend, Chris, pointed my in your direction. I am forever grateful.

Jen

#60 - Posted by: Jennifer on April 27, 2003 11:05 PM

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Well then, there's "Blivet-box full"

And, 'built like a brick blivet-house"

or Michael Moore's frog croaking, "Blivet, blivet, blivet."

I agree that the Academy should revoke his Oscar for, if all that is said about the film is true, it is fiction, not a documentary. He cheated the other film-makers in the Documentary category out of the Oscar. Now it takes a real Blivet to do that!

#61 - Posted by: Howard E. Morseburg on April 28, 2003 05:04 AM

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As to the noun, how about "scrofula?" It refers to a specific kind of tubercular swelling of the glands, and, while we don't know for sure that TB is the reason for his tumidity, neither do we know that it is not!

Perhaps an even more appropriate definition of the word is that of "a breeding sow." I, for one, can certainly imagine him, lying on his side in a pile of hay, with Janeane Garafalo, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, The Dixie Chicks (especially the fat one), and Tom Daschle (for good measure) suckling at his teats. Of course, now, I've gone and made myself sick! Thanks, Frank, your hatemail made me guffaw!

#62 - Posted by: Major Dave on April 28, 2003 09:22 AM

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Michael Moore, Helen Thomas and Molly Ivins walked into a resturant and asked to be served. The Maitre'D told them to step out back and he would fill the trough in just a moment after he fed the chickens,goats and jackasses who were in front of them..

#63 - Posted by: Tim in Jawja on April 29, 2003 07:36 PM

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This link is for Greyhawk. It seems that you are not the only one who wants to boycott Shania.
http://www.theonion.com/onion3916/wdyt_3916.html

#64 - Posted by: Zach on April 30, 2003 03:30 AM

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If ever I needed reminding, reading the Michael Moore article reminded me why I hate Americans. What a bunch of twats you really are. Mr Moore is surely a rarity as he is an American who has more than two brain cells. At least the rest of the World (excluding Israel and Poodle Blair) understand what a dangerous nation America is. Of course, the majority of you wouldn't realise this because of the old lack of brain cells. At least your current fear of all things non American will keep the majority of you gun loving, God fearing, black hating, crazy Republicans out of Europe. Long may it continue.

#65 - Posted by: Chris Ball on April 30, 2003 01:58 PM

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WAY TO GO CHRIS BALL!!! The letter to Michael Moore was anything but humorous. I kept waiting for it to get "hysterically funny."

"But he's fat and ugly!" What profound comments Frank. Freaking HILARIOUS! At least Michael Moore has something intelligent to say about the terrible state that America is in, whether you agree with it or not, you should respect other opinions, instead of stooping lower than low.

But instead you'll continue being narrowminded, you'll keep living in this website BUBBLE where America's foreign policy is A-ok.

Why are you so TERRIFIED of him? Could it be because part of what Michael Moore says it the cold hard truth? Wake up! USA is a corporate free market disaster! I feel sick knowing this time of apathetic attitude still exists.

And YES, as Chris Ball was saying, you're playing into the "dumb American" stereotype perfectly by being so closed off. If only you know what the world really thought of you.

#66 - Posted by: mm lover on May 1, 2003 12:22 AM

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We're terrified of Michael Moore because we're afraid one day he will grow to a size so large he will eclipse the sun. Then he can be like Mr. Burns on the Simpsons and use that power to threaten us, and only a baby with a handgun can stop him. So there.

#67 - Posted by: Big Dog on May 3, 2003 01:07 AM

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Frank, have you taken your Thorazine lately? Maybe your monkey can give to you...

Anyway...I think I've got you beat...

I've trained my neighbor's Doberman to recognize Michael Moore...

Or maybe it's the Pavlov effect. Everytime I hear or see that man's face, I find myself snarling...

Anyways...Chris Ball, mm lover...despite your oh-so-pithy comments, your tsk-tsking only sets you up for massive parody and satire.

Its you who must face the facts: play with the fire of contempt, and you will burn.

#68 - Posted by: ditariel on May 4, 2003 02:54 AM

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REPUBLICANS BLOW ASS!

#69 - Posted by: on May 5, 2003 01:27 PM

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I LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT, that is sooo great, u are my hero Frank J. Mikey Moore is a pure commie bitch

#70 - Posted by: Joey D on May 7, 2003 10:28 AM

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Hmmmm, a 2nd blivet shows up, Great balls a'fire. Better castrate them both before they reproduce.

There's only one image that the viewers of the Academy Awards took away with them, that of an unshaven tramp-like venomous hate-filled face with purple pouty lips vomiting his putrid vitriolic garbage, while his menage of documentarians stood in sheeplike obeisance behind him, their superior, and Lord and Master. He completely ruined these once august ceremonies for millions of viewers world-wide.

Ah yes, there were many who sided with him, like the Saddam Hussein family, or Fidel Castro, for example, and many twits who had been on and off the stage, but this corpulent buffoon trumped them all, actors, directors, writers, and studio executives. Sadly, they allowed him to do so. The Oscars have lost their glamour forever; they've now become a political pawn of Hollywood's Liberal fringe group, and even, the Lunatic fringe set.

#71 - Posted by: howard e. on May 10, 2003 04:20 AM

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Hmmmm, a 2nd blivet shows up, Great balls a'fire. Better castrate them both before they reproduce.

There's only one image that the viewers of the Academy Awards took away with them, that of an unshaven tramp-like venomous hate-filled face with purple pouty lips vomiting his putrid vitriolic garbage, while his menage of documentarians stood in sheeplike obeisance behind him, their superior, and Lord and Master. He completely ruined these once august ceremonies for millions of viewers world-wide.

Ah yes, there were many who sided with him, like the Saddam Hussein family, or Fidel Castro, for example, and many twits who had been on and off the stage, but this corpulent buffoon trumped them all, actors, directors, writers, and studio executives. Sadly, they allowed him to do so. The Oscars have lost their glamour forever; they've now become a political pawn of Hollywood's Liberal fringe group, and even, the Lunatic fringe set.

#72 - Posted by: howard e. on May 10, 2003 04:20 AM

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If Michael"Hitler" Moore won the oscar, it must have been for "best cinamatic con-job". This joker really thinks everyone is on his side, if that's so, then Michael Moore lives in the land of Oz, and Al Frankin is the mayor of Munchkin City.

#73 - Posted by: Robbie Buzogany on June 5, 2003 11:26 PM

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Want me to eplain why Bowling For Columbine is the best cinamatic con-job? Okay, here's how it goes, Almost nothing in the movie is even true. Nothing in the flick is even accuate. Charlton Heston did not give a speech anywhere near the school right after it happened. The speech Heston gave was made far away from the school, and it was given a year later. Some documentry. He rigged this swill to the way he wanted it. What were you thinking, Marilyn Manson?

#74 - Posted by: Robbie Buzogany on June 5, 2003 11:44 PM

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frank j. ain't funny, but you can't keep idiots from having their own website. damn free speech!

#75 - Posted by: sammy jankis on July 9, 2003 08:33 AM

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About that noun you were searching for back in April re: that dumbass Michael Moore....
Pissant is a nice little noun that I think completes your thought quite well.

Happy Blogaversary!

#76 - Posted by: Vickie on July 9, 2003 01:11 PM

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Rock on!

#77 - Posted by: Nathan Smith on July 14, 2003 01:56 PM

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Simply lovely,

Mr. Frank J, and that oh, so glorious fellow SSG B... What can I say? Michael Moore is the flying butt-monkey to Hillary's witch.. And if I hadn't read on to see the additional comment by SSG to add the Howler Monkeys providing back up arse-enal to keep the crowd at bay I was seriously going to recommend either them or spider monkeys! By the way, Orion, totally digin' on the haiku. I just found this site and have added to my favorites. I am laughing my lilly-white off!

#78 - Posted by: LokiDoki on July 15, 2003 11:02 PM

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Michael Moore is a piece of work. He has mastered the art of presenting only one side of the story like no other. It's really too bad. He TRIES to champion many noble causes, but he so blatantly misrepresents the facts, or just ignores them all together, that intelligent people are driven away. The only people that buy all of his crap are too stupid to see his obviously one-sided slant. The result is that when Michael "I like butter tarts" Moore latches on to a cause, even educated people (and I don't mean educated in the social sciences) assume that it must be a lame cause.

Perhaps Mr. Moore should take up the cause of the malnourished in America. He could give them a few bites of those 10-15 sandwiches he stuffs in his face in between meals.

Mr. Moore, I challange you to produce a truely objective movie or book.

good luck

#79 - Posted by: yoda on July 31, 2003 07:14 PM

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you kick ass!!!!!! I hate michael moore!

#80 - Posted by: on August 4, 2003 03:39 PM

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just for the record Shania Twain is Canadian I didn't realise we had become an american state. if thats the case i'm moving to switzerland too. Get your facts straight before you start spewing hate.

I am interested in your focus on Michael Moores physical appearance and not his statements or actions. It is representative of the slack jawed american mind set, wrap it up in a shiny package and you morons will buy it no matter what's on the inside.

all i can do is wish you luck for your country and your citizens to wise up and look at the big picture for once.

#81 - Posted by: canuck on August 18, 2003 11:50 AM

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First of all, I'm german, so that should already be enough to be hated by most of the people here (oh, we are a country who thinks that there should be a good reason for a war if there absolutely has to be one, please forgive us, we're such spoilers). Second, I think that Michael Moore is one of the most courageous men of America these days.
Most of you people here are hitting on him personally, saying what a fat bastard he is. Well, for me that says it all. You don't have much better arguments against him, so you get personal. Well done. I can't remember ever reading anything personal or something not belonging to the topic he talks about in any of his texts. He doesn't even insult the people he talks about. I see you do much better.
And even if you're not hitting on him personally, you can't do any better than saying he doesn't support your troops that are fighting for the freedom of you and everyone on earth. I can hardly imagine that you believe this bullshit. WAKE UP!!! Look at Iraq, and don't look through your Fox- and CNN-Lenses, cause there's a lot going on that is never shown to you by these channels. Do you really think these people are free and happy now? Would free and happy people kill their "liberators", as they do every day? I know as much as you do that Saddam Hussein is a dictator, a killer and a criminal. And your beloved president is no better than him. So don't tell me that your soldiers are fighting for freedom, they're fighting for the personal interests and believes of a handful of men residing in the white house. It has been proved several times that there were no reasons to believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. You are just to manipulated by the media not to see it.
So stop hitting on Michael Moore unless you have some real arguments. Saying he’s fat is not an argument. That’s like calling Stephen Hawking a stupid crippled person. You’re all acting like a 5th grade school bully.

#82 - Posted by: Q on August 25, 2003 09:33 AM

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I was going to rebut your post in detail, but then realized it was a wasted effort, Q. The only thing you understand or will accept is raw power attacks and arguments, and raw power arguments and attacks are what you will get.

The existence of Saddam Hussein's regime in the Middle East was unnacceptable. The world had changed, and regimes with a history of the production and use of WMD in the Persian Gulf were found no longer acceptable by the President and the people of the United States. Perhaps you will recognize the formulation of that as analogous to the SPQR of Rome and take exactly what I meant it to mean: the population of the US *WAS* solidly behind the war and *WAS* fully cognizant of the fact that Iraq's WMD was split up, buried, hidden, and in a hibernation state waiting for the inspections to end. Or do you deny that Saddam had, for years, maintained illicit stocks of weapons which were discovered by the UN inspections regime, and deny that the US and British troops have discovered documentation which would allow Iraq to reconstitute its program after the inspections regime passed? In addition the attack had a salutary effect on both other countries in the Middle East and in Europe, as they have moved from loud barking in the UN to whining on the sidelines like you.

The US is the superpower. The nations of the EU are not. The nations of the Middle East are not. China is not. Japan is not. The United States alone has the hard and soft power necessary to enact its will and get what it wants, and what it wants is to preserve its own unique system of freedom and liberty. We don't believe the government should be Mommy and Daddy and protect the little kiddies, and we don't expect the UN to either. If you don't like that, I couldn't care less. You haven't got the strength to do anything about it anyways.

Maybe someday the US will lose its position of relative domination, but demographics say don't hold your breath.

I have much nicer and higher-principled reasons for why I support our foreign policies, but these will suffice for one who does not know the principle of charity such as yourself.

#83 - Posted by: Taro on August 26, 2003 12:16 AM

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Despite all this jabbering, no one has refuted my main point: Michael Moore is a fat ugly man.

#84 - Posted by: Frank J. on August 26, 2003 10:14 AM

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@ taro:
truth is, if your government wouldn't have started a campaign against iraq and for the war, you wouldn't give a damn about what's going on there. the only thing making sense to me is that the government has a personal reason for the war, and it's not the suffering of children and the thread for the free world. the threat has been there years before, why have they just acted now?
one simple question: why don't the US then take action against north korea, a country that has reactivated its nuclear program and also has spoken out threats against the US warning them not to interfere, otherwise causing military countermeasures? why is there no action against this country? i would really like to have an answer to this.
@ frank j.:
he is a fat ugly man, so what? what's it got to do with what he's saying? many people are fat ugly men, Nelson Mandela was a fat and ugly man before he spent most of his life in prison and achieved great victories in ending the apartheid. I can't think of anyone ever talking about him how fat and ugly he was. that's ridiculous.

#85 - Posted by: Q on August 26, 2003 06:53 PM

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Hmm, North Korea is a nation where people are running away to CHINA. Communism has a tendency to implode. I don't consider North Korea a big military threat, especially given their inability to learn from history (virtually all their military forces are crammed up against the DMZ. Can you say "Inchon II"? I know you can!) It would be more interesting to ask YOU why North Korea had to be handled by unilateral US action and Iraq by multinational diplomacy.

And as for Iraq? You know less than nothing about the reasons the US citizenry has for the war, and your comment about "they must have personal reasons" is complete bullshit. Iraq was the obvious next target after Afghanistan, and people were talking about it then as well. When the Iraqi government is fully constituted and we start moving the troops out, the war drums will beat for either Saudi Arabia's head or maybe Iran's. Trust me on that. No propaganda is needed when the US is pissed.

#86 - Posted by: Taro on August 26, 2003 11:07 PM

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ok, so please tell me then, what are the reasons your citizens had for war? I would really like to know what reasons there are to start a preventive attack on a country that has nothing to do with el quaeda, if you want to bring 9/11 for a reason.
and if your troops are moving out and another war is prepared (I absolutely trust you on that, it's a logical implication), what then? what do you think is the aim of the next war? what's the aim behind the past 2 wars? do you think there will be peace after all that? call me stupid, but i really don't know, so please tell me.

#87 - Posted by: Q on August 27, 2003 03:40 AM

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Hmm, where to start...

1) Hussein was a big wheel in the Pan-Arab Nationalist movement that includes known terror supporter Syria (Hamas)

2) The country of Iraq is centrally located, and allows us to put the fear of Allah in every major terrorist supporting nation in the area except Libya.

3) Removing Saddam happily also removes the sanctions against IRaq, which neuters the "oil weapon" which Saudi Arabia might otherwise be inclined to play.

4) It really pissed off the UN (always a worthwhile goal to an American)

5) Executing a follow on strike against the most egregious loudmouth of the region and general poster child of rogue nationhood showed that the US was not fooling around and the post-9/11 assault on Afghanistan was not just a spasmodic annihilation of the mosquito that bit us but the beginnign of draining the swamp. Notice that there have been *NO* follow on attacks in the US, either during or after the Iraq buildup.

Those reasons will do for starters... and for you, as finishers, I don't intend to turn this sparring on IMAO.US into a trend.

#88 - Posted by: Taro on August 28, 2003 12:11 AM

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Why would anyone hate Michael Moore? I mean if you don't agree with him thats fine but hurling personal insults degrade YOU more than Michael Moore.

#89 - Posted by: Dorian Greenwood on August 29, 2003 02:40 PM

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Why hate him? He is unworthy of my hatred, but he certainly garners my extreme prejudiced dislike approaching the point of appoplexy. He is a self righteous idealogue. This in and of itself not being a crime, he is also a leftist with an extremely narrow and biased viewpoint who demonizes all whom he views as believing other than he. He accuses others of intolerance and bigotry while swinging that axe wildly, himself. What is really difficult to swallow about this hideous man is that he actually has managed to influence the simple into believing what he says has some merit, or truth. This renders him dangerous to the rest of us who have to deal with the results of his actions, and the actions of those poor souls who legitimze him. You want specifics now?

#90 - Posted by: JC on September 1, 2003 02:54 PM

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@Taro:
Hmm, I don't understand any of your points, maybe my English is too bad, maybe I'm too dumb to understand the reasons, but anyway, as you don't want to continue talking about it, let's leave it like this.

By the way:
"What is really difficult to swallow about this hideous man is that he actually has managed to influence the simple into believing what he says has some merit, or truth. This renders him dangerous to the rest of us who have to deal with the results of his actions, and the actions of those poor souls who legitimze him." (quote from JC, above)
:-) What a perfect statement! I don't think there can be said anything more appropriate about George W. Bush! :-) At least in my opinion.

#91 - Posted by: Q on September 2, 2003 04:47 AM

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I am far from simple, sir, and I believe Bush is a good president. He is honest, and has vision, something severely lacking in the Clinton regime. Clinton would put his finger to the wind to try to appease people like you who could not see through his rhetoric. He did not have there wherewithal to see anything to its real conclusion, only its politically expedient and short term favor garnering one. Remember the shooting the missles at the Aspirin factory in Sudan? In MY opinion, sir, Bush is doing a lot to undo the horrific damage left over by his predecessor, while moving us forward out of a bad economic cycle, and the damage done by the acts of terror that the likes of you would probably wish us to forgive. Either that, or you think, somehow, by our relative prosperity in the world, we bring it on ourselves. Peace must be had through strength, it can never be had through capitulation.
Now seeing as how I am off topic, let me add this, why does MM love canadian health care so much? Because it's free, awful, or because you get to be near all that Canadian bacon?

JC

#92 - Posted by: on September 2, 2003 06:03 AM

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I somehow agree with you on the point that Bush is more honest than Clinton, but I'm far from thinking that Bush is honest. I think he totally and intentionally misled the public to believe that the war was necessary and showed fake evidence to support his plan. But I don't think Clinton would have done it any better, he maybe would have done better in veiling the facts. And by the way, that's just about what everybody's darling Michael Moore said :-) At least one point about you agree with him.
Another thing: It's one thing to call him fat and ugly, apparently because some people have no other arguments against him. But I saw something on this page which made me really angry. Robbie Buzogany was talking about him as Michael "Hitler" Moore. Well, I can't think of anything else than to call you a complete idiot, moron and stupid fuckhead, cause you really are. I bet you were sitting in front of your screen, thinking "Hey, I hate Micheal Moore! Hey, let's post a comment and give him a mean nickname! Hey, I also hate Hitler, so let's call him Hitler, cause he's also evil! Hey, am I a damn genius or what? I'm so fucking great! HAHAHA!"
SOrry for being sarcastic, but I can't stand it when people post absolutly pointless, stupid and incorrect remarks. For god's sake, please think before you speak or write.
I don't have to tell you exactly who Hitler was and what he did, every idiot knows he killed millions of people and started a world war. Well, if Moore did anything similar, I'm not really up to date, I must have missed something. But I think of another person on whom this description would fit way better, though of course not coming close. Well, guess who :-)

#93 - Posted by: Q on September 2, 2003 04:03 PM

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For all interested,and to Q in particular here is a collection of articles that debunks Moore's awful "Bowling for Columbine". There are at least six pages here showing what a pompous liar this man is. Read up.

http://www.gunowners.org/opmoore01.htm

http://www.gunowners.org/opmoore02.htm

http://www.gunowners.org/opmoore03.htm

http://www.gunowners.org/opmoore04.htm

http://www.gunowners.org/opmoore05.htm

http://www.gunowners.org/opmoore06.htm

#94 - Posted by: on September 2, 2003 11:18 PM

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OK, so I took the time to read this article, not only the 6 parts mentioned above, but the complete piece of work. It was by far not the eye-opener promised to me. I have to admit that some things mentioned in the article sound reasonable, but it was not a big thing finding counterarguments to almost every “gutterball”.
First of all there are some general statements. What I noticed was that the author mostly just gives out quotes from the movie or from interviews, just saying how idiotic and stupid they are, not saying why. Not a good way to write a comment.
Then the author (and obviously many other people hating Michael Moore) has absolutely no sense of humor. I don’t think this film should be taken so absolutely seriously. If you weren’t so offended by him, you could maybe laugh at him and let him do his business, not tearing him apart and insulting him. In Germany there’s the saying “Der betroffene Hund bellt”, meaning practically that a person confronted with something and defending himself heavily usually has a reason why he’s acting so fierce. What I’m trying to say is that maybe it could be that some of the things Moore mentions are very true and you just don’t want to accept it.
Another thing is that everybody’s saying Moore is always asking questions and not answering them. I say it’s not his job. What do you expect from him? Giving answers how to make the US peaceful, erasing violence, finding an answer even why there’s such violence? He’s just a simple man, but he raises the question, that’s his real power, and that’s what few other people do.
So now to the single points of the article. The numbers below refer to those in the text.
1. Right from the beginning the article offers no plausible proof on its statements. The authors says Moore is a liar because he’s anti-gun although claiming the opposite, but it’s not proven. Moore talks about the ethic of gun possession, a ballistic database and that there’s no need to own 3 handguns. He doesn’t say they should be all put away and destroyed. Read carefully! The thing about having the right to carry plutonium, hello, just in case you don’t get it, it’s a joke.
2. Despite all of the things that the arms are not deposited in the bank, and it takes time and form-filling to get one and all that, it’s about the fact that the bank gives out guns to new customers, plain and simple. Maybe this just shocks me cause I’m no American and a policy like that is virtually impossible to be found here, but think about it. These guns are given out for free by the bank! I find this disturbing. And by the way, Chris Rock is a comedian. He makes jokes. This is not to be taken literally. I don’t know how this should support the view that the movie is idiotic. It’s fun, so laugh about it! It supports more my theory that the author is clinging to the funny sayings in the movie so his article sounds more reasonable. In my eyes he just achieves the opposite.
3. When I read this part, I had to think of the author of this text, sitting at his table, searching the internet for newspaper articles about deaths caused by toasters. I thought about if there is no better way to waste your time. IT IS A JOKE! People are killed also by washing machines, by radios, whatever there is in everyday life. He just said it to bring a humorous statement! And could you please tell me, what kills more people? Toasters or guns?
4. The CIA did train El Quaeda, that’s a fact. You can read it everywhere outside of Bush-loving media. You ask me if I believe everything that’s in the media? I ask you if you believe anything that’s in the media, including an article written and published by a gun owner’s web site! So unless you give me clear and undeniable facts that I’m wrong, I believe in that, and you’re free to do else. About the health insurance, what do you think is better? A system where you have to wait for medical treatment or don’t get it at all because you can’t afford it?
5. Well, I also don’t understand why the US had to bomb Afghanistan to punish the Taliban and El Quaeda. Why was it necessary to execute a military strike that also killed hundreds of civilians to punish them? I don’t get it. I also don’t get how an anti-missile defense shield should protect us from terrorism, neither do I understand how handguns should do so. These arguments are not applicable to me.
6. I doubt that the value of education can be measured in dollars. And even if so, the 2 budgets are almost equal (for such a high amount of money, some billions difference is almost equal!), so it makes it not much better. In my eyes, having almost the same money for books as for bombs is somehow stigmatizing for a country.
7. As well as education, I don’t think generosity can be put in dollars. And that’s all what this point is all about: dollars.
8. Well, I find it also a bit “proud of it” if there’s a plaque specifically designed for telling what enemy the plane shot down in the war. Point of view, I guess.
9. OK, then 3 more cases of gun violence. Still almost nothing compared to a equally populated US city. The author misses the intention of the movie, which is to show the difference. It’s no scientifical study, it’s a piece of entertainment. And the author can’t come on with all the other crimes committed there. It’s a movie about guns, other crimes in this case are not relevant. Canada isn’t a heavenly place, and I don’t get the impression out of it from the movie. Moore just states the fact that there are far less crimes connected to guns than in the US. And I don’t get the connection between unlocked doors and street murders, sorry.
10. Shamefully exploited kids? I don’t think they would have done it without wanting to do it. What’s the exploitation in that? And why is the author all mad about K-Mart not selling bullets any more? I don’t get it why he’s so upset about it. My guess is he was buying bullets there. In fact, he’s says nothing about why Moore is wrong on blaming K-Mart being responsible for the bullets, not a single time. He just recaptures the film scene, blames K-Mart for gutlessness and making relentless remarks about Moore being responsible for the shooting. And what’s with these “concealed carry permit holders”? Isn’t there a possibility that they could go rampaging and shooting also? What makes sure they aren’t mentally ill, starting a massacre at another school or somewhere else?
11. Moore is not lying. He doesn’t have the answer why Columbine happened. It didn’t happen because of K-Mart and Lockheed-Martin. That’s just circumstances. THE answer consists of many different circumstances, factors and so on. I don’t think Moore has a complete answer, as well as nobody else has. And the specific connection between missiles and guns is, just like McCullum says, that they “are designed to defend us from somebody else who would be aggressors against us”. Both missiles and guns can be used also in another way. To kill people that are no aggressors against us. Here’s your connection.
12. The author is absolutely right about Moore’s “lunatic theory”. If it was his. But it’s the author’s. I don’t think Moore is trying to say that because of the bombings the murderers decided to implement their plan. That IS ridiculous. There is no connection between it. What was shown in the film was a comparison and a contrast of these two violent acts. The author just looks through his black glasses, not seeing anything else than what he wants to see.
13. “If you have your hands around my throat or you're stabbing me with a knife or other such contact”, would you have time to shoot that somebody? And if you were almost blind and hear someone possibly breaking in your house, would you shoot first and ask questions later? You probably would, even if you don’t know who it is. Would you like to see an almost blind person driving his car right towards you? Then why would you like to hand him a gun? I don’t want to lock handicapped people in a room and forbid them everything, but we’re talking about harming other people unintentionally. And don’t tell me the rate of accidents is equal to a person without handicap. But hey, if “the Second Amendment applies to all American citizens”, just see what criminals and murderers do.
14. Once again, the author didn’t get the joke about making bowling responsible for Columbine. “We were unable to find any stories which in any way connected bowling to mass murders.” Of course not, you … I almost said something bad. And does he really think that Harris and Klebold committed the massacre because of hearing Marilyn Manson? True that some of his lyrics fit to what happened in Columbine, but this kind of motive they could also have gotten from the “normal” media. They just have to see how famous Charles Manson, Ted Bundy and all the other mass murderers are. It doesn’t take a song for this. Marilyn Manson just articulates what’s inside of them, not telling them what to do. I can’t remember hearing about him announcing on one of his concerts that his fans should go out and kill somebody. The author like many other people just don’t understand him and his message. I also don’t, and I don’t like his music, and his appearance is looking horrible to me, but I’m not so narrow-minded to blame him for everything. In every generation there’s Gothic, Metal, Rap, Rock’n’Roll, some kind of music accused of spoiling the youth just because the elder don’t understand and don’t like it. Well, it won’t change this way.
15. Dear author, please tell me how ridiculous it is if your daughter or son was shot in the head by some lunatic, and some days later there are people gathering in your town telling you that the gun restrictions should be lifted so people like the murderer of your daughter or son can get a bigger and deadlier gun more easier than before? Could you please tell me that? Do you think this isn’t insensitive? DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT? For god’s sake, Moore doesn’t lose a word about forbidding them to “peaceably assemble anywhere someone has been shot by a gun”, cause then there is not a single town in America where they could. But don’t you think it’s just a itsy-bitsy impolite and insensitive to assemble in a town where several families lost their sons and daughters by two people waving a gun? Don’t you think they are offended when they see Heston waving a gun some days later? If you don’t, I can’t find a word describing you best, but I find one describing you not at all: human. And what Moore asks Heston in the interview is absolutely his right to ask. These were justified questions, and you’re right, “most people know something is disgusting when they see it”. What Heston did was more than disgusting. What Moore did was asking questions, nothing more.
16. “Why she left her son in such a hell-hole?” Maybe because she had no choice? Where should she have possibly put her son if she had to go working miles away? Come on, think a little ahead and stop asking self-evident questions.
17. Fearing Dick Clark? That’s funny :-) Fearing guns and bullets? Show me one person who is not afraid of these things. If you really want to imply that Moore is mongering fear on guns, you should try yourself on fairy tales, not articles.
18. Once again I can’t believe the stupidity of the author. IT’S A CARTOON. CARTOONS ARE FUNNY. CARTOONS SHOULD BE NOT TAKEN SERIOUS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? OF COURSE not all the Indians are killed. Jesus, even you can’t expect Moore to be so dumb to say it and mean it literally. This is what we call a humorous exaggeration. Read it up in a dictionary.
19. “It's anything but scientific.” So what? I already said, it’s not a scientific study. Most of what the author does in his last part is railing at the people who think that his movie is a good one. What’s the purpose in that? Can’t you leave them their opinion? You don’t have to share it. And once again I tell you, it’s not Moore’s job to give answers to his questions. He just can’t do that, but he raises this questions to a wide audience, and few other people do so. It’s not a “good point” if the movie doesn’t answer them. And if Moore really would have “just stood by and said, and done, nothing”, the US would still be in the deep-sleep of ignorance and blindness. I think they still are, but at least someone is trying to give them a push.
So to finally come to an end, if you want to see nothing but the bad things in this movie, go ahead. Otherwise open your eyes for both sides. This movies is by far not a gutterball. Maybe it’s no strike, but it sure knocked over most of the pins.

#95 - Posted by: Q on September 6, 2003 05:19 AM

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I have the indefinite feeling that right now a bunch of people is sitting on their computers finding counterarguments to my counterarguments :-) Funny idea.

#96 - Posted by: Q on September 7, 2003 08:14 AM

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Michael Moore is the most patriotic person ever if you don’t believe me look the definition up in the dictionary.

#97 - Posted by: Michael on September 9, 2003 04:36 PM

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Michael Moore is the most patriotic person ever if you don’t believe me look the definition up in the dictionary.

#98 - Posted by: totemonkey on September 9, 2003 04:37 PM

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You Americans seem to be very very stupid, and are not able to ever cop on!

#99 - Posted by: Gregor on September 10, 2003 02:12 PM

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Michael Moore is the best!

#100 - Posted by: George on September 16, 2003 11:09 AM

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You cannot simply dismiss everything MM says or portrays in his movie as "a joke." If you do... you have amazingly bad judgement (like MM).

Lets look at the forest for a minute and see if we can better see what's happening...
Like it or not thousands died at the WTC on 9-11-01. They were innocent civilians. The attackers were terrorists in the exact sense of the word.
Like it or not innocent people were killed in both the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns. There are many ways to justify their deaths, some are just too weak to acknowledge that. Yes, too weak.
Like it or not the level of terrorism here (and abroad) has declined since 9-11-01. There isn't much dispute about that outside the properly informed. So either the Afghanistan and Iraqi "campaigns" actually reduced terrorism because it put "the fear of allah" in the terrorist groups or because they are now dead. Either way, they are NO LONGER terrorizing American citizens. And since our government's job is to keep us safe (among other things), I would say that they are fulfilling their job description.

#101 - Posted by: Your German Mother on September 16, 2003 08:51 PM

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Ok, I am in college. Call me naive. I am also an American... so you better damn well call me sir. If nothing else, those of you who are from another country (for'ners as some would say) have to see that even if you don't agree with the tactics that we used... we did stand up for ourselves in a very clear way. Again, it may not have been what YOU preferred, but then again, you aren't American. Terrorists came over here... and flew some planes into innnocent people, for which there is NO justification. On those grounds we went to the middle east, found one of the perp's hideouts, AND RUINED THEIR SHIT. Secondly, we finally (yes, finally) took care of that little problem with Iraq that everyone was having. You're welcome. The big losers economically were France and Russia AND THAT IS ONLY BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO HELP US. They could have been in on it... but they called our bluff. Tough shit. Now, again, you who do not live here (and even few who do) did not and do not like what we did. But, the beauty of democracy is that we are not run by the minorities. The other edge to that knife is that if you piss off the majority... well... now you have an idea what happens.

On a closing note... I have some "hillbilly" friends... the types that don't give a damn about for'ners, really. That's really unfortunate for you all. Maybe you should think about ways that you should change so they don't hate you so much. Since that is your advice to us with regard to the middle east. "You (Americans) should change so they don't hate you so much." You know what? Maybe they should change. Call me a hillbilly.

#102 - Posted by: Funny guy on September 16, 2003 09:06 PM

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Q, dear...

I don't think you're quite getting where Frank J. is coming from this. It's understandable- German's are known far and wide for their resistance to irony. Suffice to say, Frank is dealing with layer upon layer of irony here. It's rather addictive kind of snarky attitude. It's all humor, another non-German concept.

As for the Michael Moore thesis, it's not lengthy to refute. Moore claims the US death rate is the result of American cultural attachment to guns. This isn't borne out by comparative data. Taking blacks out of the equation, Americans murder at about the same rate as the famed pacific Canadians. Seeing as how his entire thesis was that it was white gun culture, it loses coherence quickly.

#103 - Posted by: JFV on September 16, 2003 11:36 PM

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Man are you people dumb! Get over it! If you don't like him, who cares! ALOT of people do. You need to get lives, control yourselves. Alot of Americans don't have that perfect image that you think they do. The world doesnt think your superior! Your equal to Iraq, you're equal to Canada and England and China and every other country. Know it.

#104 - Posted by: Lucus on September 17, 2003 01:57 AM

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and I thought this forum is dead :-)
@your german mother: (what's with the name?)
I don't say everthing in the movie is a joke. if you'd read my post better, you would have noticed. I just say that the author of the article is completely missing it when a joke is made. He just says how wrong this and that is, when it's clear that it isn't meant that exact way. The author uses this as arguments, that's his fault.
and as I understand it, you also think that the reasons for the last two wars were just too weak? That's what I say, too.
and i don't agree with you that terrorism has declined. maybe in your country, but who says it won't happen again? it could happen any time, and there is not much necessary to cause fear and panic, the goals of terrorism.
And terrorism can not be killed. If you kill bin Laden and all of his high followers, his ideas and believes live on. He would just become a martyr.
@funny guy:
you ruined no-one's shit. you just forced them to move along. remember the attack on bali? el quaeda. doesn't look much like you ruined their shit.
I don't see how france and russia were economical losers. haven't heard of anything that they are in trouble. but in fact, I heard of another country who was fighting a war this year, but found out that it turned out far more expensive than expected. This country now has to beg for money and support from the UN, right after it started the war itself and against the UN's decision. Hmm, what country do I mean?
So in your eyes the beauty of democracy is being run by a majority, but only when the majority is led to believe that this war is necessary by false evidence, false rhetoric and false patriotism. And I see what happens if someone pisses of the majority: the majority loses all credibility and stands there as a complete fool. right on.
@JFV:
I liked your post best :-) you proved all by yourself that you have no idea what irony is. I give you a definition: if I want to state something and I say the opposite, but in humorous way that makes it clear I don't mean it like I say, then you call it irony. Well, I read frank's article again, and I found not one piece of irony in it. all he does is insulting and spitting out hatred. about that he's ugly, he's fat, he's whatever. Hey, he can do what we want, but don't call it irony. it's just not true.
germans resistant to irony? i guess you don't know, put political comedy is absolutly popular here. there was a huge hit last year, sung by a impersonator about chancellor Schroeder (our head of state, in case you don't know). was he mad? no. he laughed about it. uh yes, we're so resistant to irony.
"taking blacks out of the equation" brilliant idea. take the blacks out, and everything is fine. just in case you don't know, they are also americans. you can't take them out. that's no argument, that's hypothetical nonsense. not relevant.

#105 - Posted by: on September 17, 2003 09:05 AM

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forgot my name above, but I think you can guess who it was coming from :-)

#106 - Posted by: Q on September 17, 2003 09:06 AM

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Q,
I thought I couldn't make this article more obviously a joke, but it still must fly by some people. Do you even know what irony is?

And Lucus, why would America care what other countries thing about it. Would I care what an ant thinks about me? He should just be greatful I don't crush him (well, I usually do).

#107 - Posted by: Frank J. on September 17, 2003 09:39 AM

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German dude:

You seem genuinely confused by Frank's post. I am in fact looking for irony in your confusion about Frank's irony, but I'm not finding any. Frank is self-parodying his dislike for Michael Moore... it's a joke! Allow yourself a smile, it'll feel great!

Hmm, I do see that Bali was your example of how "powerful" Al-Kay-Duh supposedly is now. Let Beatnik Joe break it down for you. We had two choices after we got attacked:

1) give up and die and\or convert to militant (not moderate) Islam.

2) cower, build up the castle walls, eliminate all civil liberties in the name of security, and then whine, apologize, and beg for mercy. For an American, this is simply not an option.

3) destroy the organization responsible, along with those that have given them aid and comfort. Booya! Now that's what I'm talking about. See how nice this one sounds?

So we went with option 3, and so far it has worked out incredibly well. I apologize if that offends you or makes you even frownier than usual, but while you're whining about the injustice of the last two wars, we're working to solve our problem. Help from our friends would have been great, but our "friends" worked to trip us up at every step, and delight in our every setback. See, for example, the delight you show in your misleading comment about us "begging for money from the UN."

You seem to have this theory that if we wipe out all of the terrorists, their "ideas and believes" will "live on." This sounds a lot like those frowny-faced theories from the European (and American) left about how the Iraq war would be "like Vietnam" and have "hundreds of thousands dead" and cause "millions of refugees" and "ignite the Arab street." Wait, you mean to tell me none of that stuff happened? But... but... you guys are Europeans! You're supposed to be so brilliant, so nuanced!

Aw, c'mon, Hans! I didn't mean to make you sad. Turn that frown upside-down! Be happy for us and for the Iraqi people. The world's a heck of a lot better off without Saddam and the Taliban, and we both know it. But only one of us is saying it.

#108 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 17, 2003 11:43 AM

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hey, I really don't want to talk ALL the time about what in here is ironic and what not. I think Frank's article is NOT ironic, I have never said that it is NOT a joke, I didn't intend to make MY post ironic, and particularly that thing about the leprechauns MADE me laugh, so I don't take it too serious. Why I started writing here is because I thought maybe at least some of my arguments find hearing and maybe even believing. But it seems most people here are as reserved to alternate thoughts as I've got the impression before.
believe me, you don't offend me by writing your opinion, you don't even offend me by insulting me, because I simpy don't care about insults from people some thousand miles away that I don't even know, and I'm not whining about the injustice of anything.
what you just don't realise or don't want to realise is that el quaeda is not dead, as the attack on bali PROVED. and you didn't solve the problem at all.
The UN delighted about the US wanting help? Maybe that's what your news tell you, but the UN wants a resolution on Iraq. But not to the conditions of the US. That's what the UN is about, deciding together, not one single country telling what to do. The US started the war, so it would be reasonable to let them pay for it, but most members of the UN want to help. To reasonable conditions.
hey, we europeans are not all so brilliant as you think. we're normal people. but we maybe have some differnet views. some of ours are better, some of yours are better. maybe some of us predicted a catastrophical ending to the war, and maybe they were not right, only time will tell. But you have to admit that not everything turned out as well as you thought. overthrowing Hussein, setting up a democracy, all within a few years maybe. sounds not that realistic anymore, does it?
and why are most of you so mad about lefties? Just because you don't think that way? Uh damn, I really don't want to talk about that, this is leading nowhere. The word narrow-minded just comes to my mind. Everyone against the war is left, a commie or a hippie. Poor.
And are you not at least a little concerned at how the world looks on you? Doesn't it tick you off when you're seen as stupid idiots, warmongers and gun-fanatics? I'm sorry, but that's the common image. This would hurt MY patriotic feelings if I would hear this. Well, if you want to go on like this, you'll see how far you're coming. You can't do anything on your own, and if you're continuing in this way, your few allies will probably also run away.
"The world's a heck of a lot better off without Saddam and the Taliban" Well, it would be, if they were gone, but they aren't. Trust me, in some months time you won't hear anything anymore from Hussein in the news, just until he kills some people again. Just like bin Laden.

#109 - Posted by: Q on September 17, 2003 01:12 PM

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Sorry, your failure to win converts to your way of thinking does not mean that others are "reserved to alternate thoughts."

The way you categorize victory and defeat is very telling by the way. You claim that because there was an attack in Bali, that Al Qaeda has somehow won, and nothing has changed, as if nothing was better than before. I mean, why even bother fighting? We need to cower and submit right now! You may have difficulty understanding how strange such a mindset seems to most Americans.

And are you telling me that you truly believe Hussein's going to come back to power and start raping, murdering, and dumping people (feet first) into plastic shredders again now? That he will ever again "disappear" 300,000 people? That he will ever again fill mass graves? I, too, would prefer that he were killed and

The way you responded comes across as quite petty, but very telling. I am convinced that you do not want to give the US even a shred of credit at any cost. Unfortunately, you don't even appear to be willing to admit that Al Qaeda and Saddam have been weakened and that this is good.

Come on, surely you can recognize that you're unfairly re-raising the bar when your only definition of success is no more terrorism, ever again. Well, that's just not gonna happen, brother. I think the fact that we have avoided any major terrorist incidents on American soil for this long is simply amazing, no matter how many times those of you against the war on terror move the goalposts.

Hopefully at some point you will support us in our goal, but perhaps you will not. But the opinion of other, self-interested nations is not the only way we decide our foreign policy anymore. That all changed September 11, when we found ourselves at war.

Peace out,
Beatnik Joe

#110 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 17, 2003 04:05 PM

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What you read in my words is not my responsibility. I never said and never meant that el Quaeda won the war, that’s ridiculous. What meant and what bali proved is that el quaeda is not dead. Nothing more, nothing less. Something has changed, but you can’t tell me that you received such a big victory over them. Simply not true.
And what about always saying that you should hide in your holes and cower? You turn my words around! I never ever said it! I just get the impression you read what you want in my posts so you can get me down more easily. The only thing I’m trying very hard to tell you is that there is NOT only YOUR way. YOUR way is NOT the only right way. And you simply don’t understand it. That’s what I’m mean by “reserved to alternate thoughts”.
Hussein doesn’t need to come back to power, don’t you see? He is no longer in power, and he’s still killing people, simply by telling other people to do so. And I have no idea if Hussein and bin Laden have been weakened or not, and you also have no idea, because you can’t measure terrorist activities. Maybe the US strikes have a pushing affect, just supporting the hatred towards the US in the middle east. Maybe they don’t. Fuck it, I’m no expert in that. But you’re so keen on seeing it as a great victory or at least a weakening, you don’t even think about the possibility that it could turn out to be a failure, or already is one.
And please, if you think I’m stupid, go ahead and say so. But don’t make me look like I said my “only definition of success is no more terrorism, ever again”. You must think I’m a complete moron if you say so. Fuck it, do you think I live in a dream world? In the near and far future, this is simply not possible. Not unless everybody’s mind is controlled or like Matrix is becoming reality or other stupid shit. I just don’t get it how bombing two nations can help weaken terrorism. This is my own personal view: I think it just supports it. When an airplane kills your son, you want revenge. And it doesn’t matter if the airplane is flown into a building where your son works or if the airplane is dropping bombs on your son. You want revenge, and Americans got their revenge in a strange way that I don’t understand, and in the years to come you probably have to deal with the revenge of the people American airplanes killed. And it could also be that you don’t have to deal with it, never again, because I can’t predict the future. But somehow the first possibility sounds reasonable, don’t you think?
True that “the opinion of other, self-interested nations is not the only way we decide our foreign policy anymore”. And it’s sad that these opinions don’t count at all for you at the moment. You found yourselves at war, well, that’s a late insight. Terrorism wasn’t born on September 11th. Your government could have done far more in all the years before, but hey, until then it wasn’t such a thread. No big thing. Clinton missed several chances to catch bin Laden. Then Americans were killed, and suddenly the problem had to be fixed, and the country supporting el Quaeda was bombed. That’s a very short sight
Two questions at the end, and I would like to have a honest answer. Before the war, your president and his administration said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and Hussein had links to el Quaeda. After the war, your president and his administration said there was no prove or hint about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and there was no evidence Hussein had links to el Quaeda. Do you trust a president, the leader of your nation, who has been lying to you? And tell me, if you can, what was the reason to start a war against iraq just NOW? Why not a year before or next year? Just because the military machinery was just in full swing?

#111 - Posted by: Q on September 18, 2003 07:38 AM

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"What you read in my words is not my responsibility"
Well shit man, you've laid down an aweful lot of them!

#112 - Posted by: QRZ on September 18, 2003 08:59 AM

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Q-bert, in your own words: "the reasons for the last two wars were just too weak" That includes Afghanistan. To fail to act against Al-Qaeda and the Taliban would indeed have been to cower and hide. So yes, you wanted us to cower and hide.

You also said "you ruined no-one's shit. you just forced them to move along" Sure sounds like a condemnation of the war effort to me.

We are winning the war on terror, but we have not won it yet. Saddam out of power? The Taliban overthrown? 2\3 of the top Al-Qaeda leaders captured or killed? Bin Laden dead or in deep hiding? Saudi Arabia (maybe) taking real steps toward investigating terrorism? Early signs of pro-democratic unrest in Iran? These accomplishments are truly amazing, and they should be something that the international community embraces, not condemns or huffily ignores. Our success is your success, and we will all benefit.

I will certainly agree with you on one thing: we missed many opportunities to deal with this problem before. Most Americans (myself included) viewed terrorism as a scary business, but as mostly a regional problem that had only a tangential effect on us. I was young then, but I didn't really start waking up to the danger until the USS Cole bombing. So I certainly agree that we should have acted sooner, but I also believe in "better late than never." You seem to be advocating "never" as if on September 11th we would say, "Well, we really should kill the guys responsible for this, but shucks, it's just too late!"

The murder of 3000 of our innocent citizens was an enormous wake-up call. If you had such an incident occur in Germany, I believe that you would better understand just what that means. 3000 lives ended, just to make some stupid, barbaric point. Evil was now staring us in the face - we had enemies that wanted to end our existence, and obliterate our way of life. We could either run and hide from that realization, or we could butch up and fight the enemy.

WMD: that Saddam Hussein possessed WMD at one time is a fact. He used them to slaughter thousands of Kurds (some of the bodies filling those mass graves you prefer not to think about.) He also used them against Iran, so there was proof that given the capabilities he could gleefully strike out with WMD. The remainder of these weapons are unaccounted for (and we are talking about a lot of WMD.) About that there is no dispute. The Bush Administration contends that WMD will still be found, and your assertion to the contrary is false.

Therefore, two possibilities remain. First, the WMD programs were a bluff. In order to believe this, you must accept that Saddam destroyed his WMD, but then told no one, and voluntary kept himself under UN sanctions. He wanted to represent that he had WMD in order to appear strong, so he lied convincingly in order to do so. Second, the WMD simply have not been found. They have either been moved or buried, and in an area the size of California, good luck finding them.

Al-Qaeda links: The Iraq links to the first WTC bombing are well-known, and the situation is still developing. Saddam's links to Hizbollah and the financing of Palestinian suicide bombers are also irrefutable. Remember, it's a war against all terrorist groups of global reach. Hussein's regime provided them with financing, aid, and comfort. Interesting link:
link

These are by no means the only reasons to go into Iraq.
http://denbeste.nu/essays/strategic_overview.shtml

Bottom line: Bush didn't lie. I do feel lied to by the anti-war crowd who went on and on about every possible way that we would fail (as outlined in my previous post.) My question for you: why are you so eager to see the United States fail in its goals? Instead of insulting us and calling us cowboys so that you can feel superior, why not offer real solutions? It's not just a matter of us having "different solutions", it's a matter of Europe calling us names while offering no viable ideas. Until you've got a better solution, we're sticking with ours.

#113 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 18, 2003 01:14 PM

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Alternately, ignore everything I just wrote, and groove on a 100x better piece from Lileks. Great stuff. Maybe it'll help you understand.

http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/03/0903/091803.html

#114 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 18, 2003 01:28 PM

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really, I'm absolutely tired of justifying myself and explaining my words over and over again. either you do read my posts the way you want them to be, or my english is so bad I just get it out wrong, but I don't really believe that. but whatever, one more time.
I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA wether the last 2 wars had a good or a bad effect over all. It's my opinion that there could have been other and probably better ways. And it's my opinion that the reasons were too weak for a war. That DOESN'T automatically lead to the conclusion that in my opinion you should have cowered and hided. Again: IT DOES NOT! really, can't you see anything else than war and no war? diplomatic action, sending in special forces, UN resolution? I don't want talk about what fits best and what's unrealistic. I just want to ask, do you see no other choice than military action? I DON'T CONDEM YOUR WARS. I can't, since maybe in some years time Afghanistan and Iraq are beautiful florishing democrating countries. Damn it, who am I to know? I just think it's not, but I do get the ultimate impression that most of you do have the absolute knowledge that everything will be fine and a great success.
Yes, if something like that would have occurred in germany, we would have probably acted similar.
Yes, I know very well that Hussein had WMD AT ONE TIME. But within (interrupted) years of UN sanctions and monitoring and months of heavy US searchings, not finding only one clear evidence about WMD or fabrication of WMD, I tend to support your first possibility. But for me a bluff is no reason to start war. I would think that someone starting a preemptive strike would check his informations better.
My bottom line: I think I outlined why I'm not eager to see the US fail in its goals. But hey, I thought that before also. So once again: I'M NOT ANTI-AMERICAN, I DON'T CONDEM THE WAR, I DON'T WANT TO SEE THE US FAIL.
I insulted you, I called you cowboys, I feel superior to you? I never said that, read through my posts. I do not speak for the whole of Europe, this is my personal view. And it is not my job to offer solutions, it's the job of the UN. And I think the UN was too busy trying to prevent a strike on Iraq for offering solutions before the war. And after it, after the dust settled, now most of the UN members are willing to help on rebuilding Iraq.
My second bottom line :-) : I see now quite clearly that you stick to your believes and I stick to mine. The articles all sound reasonable in some way, but I still have my views. I still think that the Bush administration lied and there were no good reasons for the 2 wars. But maybe I can somehow understand your reasons better for not believing in that. You know, all of this is more or less interpretation. I still can read the passages about Bush not having lied like he actually has lied. That's my view. And I can understand you have another. I don't want to end the discussion with that, I actually like it here, and I do want to go on discussing about these topics. As I said, I didn't come here to "convert" someone to see the light :-)

#115 - Posted by: Q on September 19, 2003 02:22 AM

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Today be International Talk Like a Pirate Day, so Arrr! Frankly, I be 'orrible with the pirate speak, so I'll keep 'er short.

We've tried diplomatic action (years of worthless sanctions that hurt only the citizens of Iraq without causing Saddam much, if any, real damage), and "UN resolutions" are what had us tied up for 12 years (we also share the blame with the UN for not going into Baghdad during Gulf War I.) I do agree that the UN was concentrating its energy on preventing a strike in Iraq, giving Hussein no reason whatsoever to cooperate.

But you know what I saw in your last post? "I'M NOT ANTI-AMERICAN, I DON'T CONDEM THE WAR, I DON'T WANT TO SEE THE US FAIL".

Now how can I beat up on you after you say something like that? :) It's good to hear after so taking so much bashing from European leaders all these months. Now if only we could get Howard Dean to say the same thing!

Anyway, arr! Happy Pirate Day.

#116 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 19, 2003 11:10 AM

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To all of those who have obviously been brainwashed by Micheal Moore... I'm sorry

If you don't think this site is funny then why the hell do you visit it?

To "Micheal"- apparently you have a version of the Liberal's Dictionary, because a true patriotic person is one who stands behind their country and it leaders, NOT stupid fat men who take every possible opportunity to bash it.

Pretty sad that a 16-year-old can see all of this while their are thousands of people in our great country who refuse to see what's right in front of them, people like Michael, Chris Ball and MM Lover.

Y'all are a bunch of pathetic losers who can't think for yourselves.

#117 - Posted by: Miranda on September 21, 2003 12:33 AM

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Frank J your fucked and your fucking us so fuck off you giant twat , ho sorry was that not christian enough for you .
Suck satans cock!

#118 - Posted by: ben on September 21, 2003 07:34 PM

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Can someone tell me why the war was justified? A simple request really, so keep the answers as rhetoric- and profanity-free as possible. I just have no idea what the reasons were now that no WMD have been found and Bush et al have recently denied suggesting any link between Saddam and 9/11. I'm not mocking America; I really just want to know the answer. From an objective, third-party perspective it appears to have been initiated to secure oil supplies and help Bush Sr's associates line their pockets (Haliburton is doing well these days, eh?)

This isn't intended as anti-American. I have close friends in several American cities including New York, and it was a terribly upsetting to see what happened to so many innocent people.

I just want a straightforward answer.

And "Miranda", regarding your comment, "Y'all are a bunch of pathetic losers who can't think for yourselves." - were you referring to the people who support MM and his right to free speech, or GW and the other folks who are stripping your rights away? I suggest you take the time to thumb through the Patriot Act some day.

#119 - Posted by: on September 22, 2003 03:55 PM

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Anon - this has been hashed and rehashed in this post throughout my discussions with Q. Your question doesn't have a very sincere ring to it given your assertion that the war was started so cartoonish rich guys could "line their pockets." You imply that you're not an American, so it may be difficult for you to understand what a silly cliche that sounds like to us.

Your mocking dig about Haliburton is a pretty clear indicator about your agenda here. I have no problem with your question, but to say that it comes from an "objective, third-party perspective" is an insult to the intelligence.

Anyway, we acted not on one reason but on an accumulation of reasons.

1. WMD. Either Saddam had WMD and WMD programs or he wanted to represent them to hold a position of power in the Middle East. He used them against his own civilian population, killing thousands. I say again, killing thousands. These weapons remain unaccounted for to this day.

2. Defiance of UN resolutions. 12 years is a long time to wait for compliance.

3. Past history. Saddam had proven capable of invading his neighbors, and furthermore had proven that he would have no hesitation to use WMD against his neighbors as well. (You can ask Iran about this.)

4. Human rights abuses. Oh my God. Where do I even start with this? Mass graves, hundreds of thousands "disappeared", torture, state-sanctioned rape. Hopefully you are aware of this. This reason alone is more than sufficient, and to ignore it now to further your own agenda is a mistake.

5. Support for terrorism. The administration simple couldn't provide an Iraq-9/11 link. The link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda is a different story entirely, and recent evidence has come to light suggesting that such a link does exist. In addition, Saddam is a well-known supporter of terrorism, particularly Hizbollah, and was a hearty monetary supporter of suicide bombers.

6. Democracy in the heart of the Middle East. We have not achieved this yet, and failure is always a possibility, but democracy and modernization is crucial for this region to ever emerge from its current state.

For a more detailed discussion of our strategic goals in Iraq and the Middle East, see:
http://denbeste.nu/essays/strategic_overview.shtml

#120 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 23, 2003 03:17 PM

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By the way, here's what we're spending our money on in Iraq. More evidence of what a groundless and silly assertion the tired old "it's all for Haliburton!" is.

link

#121 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 23, 2003 03:36 PM

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That thing with Haliburton: I believe that some oil companies did get or will get their profit from the whole Iraq war. That's my point of view, but I don't think it can be proven, as well as that they don't get a profit from it. Call me paranoid, but I think some companies are powerful and wealthy enough to disguise the evidence or even let it vanish.
Here's something for Miranda AS WELL AS ben: What I really hate are people who can't do any better than saying everybody's a "bunch of pathetic losers" and tells them to "fuck off you giant twat". Only because there are different opinions. Proves to me that you yourself can't think for herself. That's of no substance at all, and it's not a discussion. If I got something wrong and this forum is all about insulting and stating pointless things, that would be sad. But my discussion with Beatnik Joe proves to me that people can talk about a topic without using any unjustified remarks. I can't tell you to shut up, but for god's sake, please think at least for a minute before you write something.

#122 - Posted by: Q on September 24, 2003 08:05 AM

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Beatnik Joe, thank you for answering my question. As Q has written previous to me, I do appreciate your type of measured, and non-profanity laden response. I enjoy civil, open debates that don�t decend into name-calling. Despite your comments to the contrary, I do not have an agenda...I'm not even too sure as to what that means (an agenda of good ol' America bashing?) I do appreciate your comments, so now I will retort:

1. No WMD have been found. End of story. I appreciate the size and scope of the search, but we are not talking about a couple of US patrolmen out in the desert with metal detectors. Spy planes, satellites, thousands of soldiers, interviews with Iraqi scientists, etc all coming up with the same answer: nothing. What else needs to be said here? From the original presentations made to the UN it made it sounds as if the country was bursting at the seams with them. Now you have stories coming out of the UK that the charges were �sexed up�. Why?

I feel at this point, I should remind you that America is the only country in the world to have actually used true WMD (twice) � in WWII against Japan. I would also like to point out that the US was one of Iraq�s greatest suppliers of arms before the first Bush invaded. More on that later�

2. I must take issue here. Do you know what member country of the UN�s security council has used it�s veto power more than any other? Yep, the United States. See: http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/veto/articles.htm And what country continues to be defiant in the face of international criticism with regards to such initiatives as the Kyoto protocol, treaties on land mines, and non-proliferation of arms (re: missile defence systems)? Same answer. Saddam is not a good guy. He has done terrible things. But it wouldn�t hurt to look unto ourselves, before condemning others. I know you like clich�s so, �Those in glass houses��

3. Don�t really have an argument against that one. But you should talk to people in Granada, Panama, Cuba, and yes, my forefathers (though it�s been a while, about two centuries � we turned you back), about U.S aggression landing on foreign soil.

4. Again, I have no argument against this one; there was a horrific slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Kurds by Saddam�s armies. Though I would like to point out this was happening long before the US decided to fund Saddam in the war against Iran. Why was is okay to look the other way then, and now turn around and use it as evidence? You want to talk about human rights violations, what about the detainees in Guantanamo Bay? No formal charges, no lawyers, no outside contact. I understand they are considering preparing a death chamber for executions, see: here AND here That's scary.

5. The support for terrorism link is perhaps the weakest line of them all. The US has been supporting, with funding and arms, terrorist groups around the world for decades. Where do you think Osama got his start? And as I mentioned before, who do think trained Saddam�s men in the first place? What about Noriega? It�s this constant flip-flopping that is so maddening to me. It�s as if the enemy is funded, and then stripped down by the same superpower, in some bizarre cycle. I actually noticed that MM�s film �Canadian Bacon� was derided in an earlier entry in this discussion. The basis of that movie is that very point � that us peaceful, syrup eaters in the North could somehow become the next �THEM�. It�s actually a very clever movie, that deserves a second viewing by that person.

6. Bring democracy to the Middle East. That�s great. But isn�t the deal behind democracy that it�s the will of the people? How can the US force its brand of democracy upon another nation? Why does the United States feel that�s their job? The democratic system is, in my opinion, no doubt the most effective way to govern the people � when it works well. Though I�m sure you�re going to roll your eyes here, may I remind you that Bush was never actually elected by the people in 2000. Instead he was put into power by a supreme court that is staffed principally by people appointed by his father, in a state that is governed by his brother. I mean, I don�t care how pro- or anti-American someone is, that just reeks to me. I have a fairly healthy grasp of how the US electoral system works, but it also interesting to point out that more people did vote for Gore in the end. I digress though, no point in beating a dead donkey right?

As a footnote here, common Iraqis are the ones attacking US soldiers these days, see: http://slate.msn.com/id/2088799/ . And let�s not get into the whole Palestine situation. To suggest they are terrorists and Israel is free from any wrongdoing is ludicrous, but is for a conversation at another time.

Addendum: I don�t really see how the url you provided proves your point that the Haliburton theory is bunk. It doesn�t say anything about who got the contracts to do those jobs. In fact, people quoted in the article point out, very correctly, that this is money the States is ill-advised to spend abroad. But back to the point. Check out here AND here AND here . There's the concrete proof of where the money is going. I don�t understand why people so vehemently defend the president on these issues. He�s taking your money and giving it to his friends.

The United States is a very cool place. It was founded on some incredible ideals about personal freedom, and the opportunity for everyone to make it, in their own way. As a country, I would argue it�s a better place to live than 98 per cent of the world. But I just think it has lost its way somewhere along the line. Your civil liberties are being taken away, while the gulf between the haves and have nots is forever widening. There just seems to be this attitude of fear hanging over American politics these days, and I think people are reacting (and reasonably so) in less than rational ways.

Whew. That was a lot of typing. It has been a pleasure being your neighbour all these years, and I look forward to many more good times in the future.

#123 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on September 24, 2003 10:27 AM

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...and I would never insult your intelligence.

#124 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on September 24, 2003 10:37 AM

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1. The search isn't done yet, and whether or not Saddam destroyed his WMD, he most certainly represented them. And who's to say they weren't destroyed in the 11th hour? Thousands of dead Kurds stand testament to the fact that he did indeed have WMD.

By the way, it is totally incorrect to assert that the United States is the only country to use WMD. We're the first and only to "drop the bomb", so to speak, but Saddam all on his lonesome did a pretty good job of killing people with WMD. Chemical weapons have enjoyed a long and bloody history, and Saddam wrote another gruesome chapter in that history.

2. Sorry, this one doesn't make sense to me. We did not implement the Kyoto protocol (and thank God for that) because our legislature overwhelmingly rejected this flawed treaty. I get the feeling that you're "throwing in" some of your pet issues that aren't relevant to the debate at hand. I understand that these issues make you angry, but you just can't draw a parallel between the US rejecting Kyoto and Saddam throwing out inspectors and continuing his human rights violations after invading a neighboring country.

3. I am 96% sure you're being facetious here, but anyway, sorry about the whole invasion thing. Still friends? :)

4. We had a stack of reasons a mile high, and human rights is yet another very important item on that stack. That explains the timing far better than some assertion that Haliburton was behind it all (which is, to put it kindly, a little thin.)

By the way, if you're suggesting that we should have gone in sooner (early 90s) you'll find no argument from me, brother.

I also take objection your parallel between the treatment of Guantanamo prisoners and the hundreds of thousands killed by Saddam's regime. This seems indicative of a very serious skew of perspective. The link you provided was talking about an idea that was being "floated." You're drawing a parallel between the violent deaths of thousands and the fact that someone dared to even utter the idea of executing terrorists.

Again, this may be a favorite issue of yours, but it isn't relevant to Iraq. The core issue here is Iraq's abuse of human rights. I don't think this is an issue lightly brushed aside with references to Gitmo.

6. Whether or not democracy can be brought - I suppose only time will tell for sure, but statist dictatorships nearly always have to be brought down violently, via war either hot or cold. War was necessary to topple Saddam's regime. After the war, it would not have been moral to leave Iraq to pick up the pieces on its own. Instead, we have stayed to get the seeds of democracy going there. Things aren't perfect, but things are working, the power's back on in Baghdad, and tons of progress is being made every day. We still have everything to lose, but I, for one, am optimistic.

Man, you were right about the eyerolling! I can't believe you brought up the "selected, not elected!" thing. The votes have been counted and recounted, and every post-mortem has indicated that Bush did, indeed, win Florida, and Al Gore did, indeed, win the popular vote. But you know what? We are a large, diverse nation, and we have this thing called the electoral college which represents that. It is in our Constitution, and with good reason. Ayiee, you got me to talk about this, even though it's not relevant to the issue at hand! How do you Canadians do that? :)

By the way, I didn't mean to play up that article as a massive debunking, but more just to show that if this war is our way of "making a buck for Haliburton", then the American reputation of being good at business is totally undeserved. Yes, I guarantee that some projects will go to Haliburton. They can put out oil fires like nobody's business, and Cheney has divested himself of all interest in the company.

There are _always_ legitimate concerns that a post-war spoils system could emerge if these contracts aren't watched, just as with any government contract. But this does not in any way validate the conspiracy theory that we entered a war to serve the interests of Haliburton. Such a sketchy assertion should be backed up with real evidence. Worst of all, it politicizes the issue - by asserting that the entire war was conducted for the benefit of Haliburton, you have made it all that more difficult for post-war expenditures to be objectively monitored (it gets lumped in with all other pro-war\anti-war issues.) These issues are separate and should remain separate. I see no real problem with the Haliburton deal right now. But if there were some problem, do you think that it could be honestly discussed over the noise of people always screaming that the war was started for Haliburton?

Wow, I think that's all I can type for now. But I do want to point out that it's very cute that you spelled neighbor with a "u". Ah, how can you not love Canadians?

#125 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 24, 2003 11:39 AM

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Quick note for Q - I think Ben was (quite rudely) cussing out our gracious host FrankJ rather than you. Just so you know that not all of the nastiness is being directed at you. :)

#126 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 24, 2003 11:44 AM

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Thanks again for your honest reply, without actually answering any of my points Beatnik, perhaps you have a future in politics.

Hopefully I can re-address your points a little faster this time..

First of all, if you could read back my entry to me and point out where I suggested the war was started only for the benefit the people at Haliburton, I would appreciate it. Though it was a point raised in my initial e-mail, it certainly was not the only reason I can see for why the US went to war.

Other reasons (in no order):

1. Divert people’s attention away from the fact that the economy is in disarray and once again, that he never actually won the election (please show me the post-election polls and studies that have proven otherwise.)
2. Unfinished business by elder Bush and his gang. They genuinely don’t like Saddam and want him out. Didn’t you find it amazing that the same cast of characters was assembled: Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld?
3. You always need to have an enemy. (Especially when so much money is spent on the military. But strangely enough, lacking from homeland security.)
4. Control over one of the largest oil producing countries in the world. Why else is he so against having the power transitioned back to the Iraqi people? And why, during his speech at the UN yesterday (which was pretty much panned by everyone I’ve read) is he only asking the UN to perform trivial tasks. He’s an oilman after all.
5. He’s pissed off. After September 11th he is angry at what happened (rightly so) and looking for anyone to take down as a result (not right.) Why he hasn’t gone after Saudi Arabia is curious considering, what, 19 out of the 21 hijackers were from there? Can you explain that to me?
6. Saddam is horrible person that the world can do without.

Now, to address your responses:

1. So how long is needed? What about the report out of the UK that they could launch an attack in 45 minutes? Again, in the lead up to the war, both Powell and Bush made it sound like Saddam kept nukes in his bedside table. You don’t need to find a complete warhead to prove it to me; just a shred will do now.
2. You’re right, chemical weapons have had a long and gruesome history. Including the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam. http://www.hon.ch/News/HSN/512750.html But that’s beside the point, the US is still responsible for two of the greatest one-off WMD uses in history by ‘dropping the bomb’, so to speak. Perhaps UN weapons inspectors should be sent to Colorado.
3. I’m not being facetious. You did invade Granada, Cuba and yes, Canada, pretty much unprovoked. Again, no hard feelings, it was a while ago.
4. You didn’t really reply to my assertion that the US ignored previous Saddam atrocities that occurred before teaming up with him against Iran. The US knew what he was up to and even armed and funded him. In fact, I’m sure some of the weapons used to kill the Kurds had “Made in the USA” stamped on them. If Bush is such a pillar in human rights, why isn’t he denouncing the atrocities that go on in Africa and Timor and around the globe? Simply, there’s nothing to be gained there.

And no, to be clear, I wasn’t suggesting Clinton should have saddled up in the ‘90s and trotted over there sooner, brother. He was, for the most part developing domestic and economic policies, while defending himself against a pointless witch-hunt conducted by the Reps. (Yes, I do have a political slant, but I’m sure it was clear before.) How much money and newsprint was wasted on determining if he received cone in the Oval Office? Who cares?

To quote: “You're drawing a parallel between the violent deaths of thousands and the fact that someone dared to even utter the idea of executing terrorists.” No I wasn’t. I was drawing a parallel between the US complaining about human rights violations, while committing human rights violations themselves. If you re-read your sentence, you’ll see the flaw in your logic, as they are two completely different points. Now I quote Bush’s speech to the UN yesterday, “Tens of thousands of political opponents and ordinary citizens have been subjected to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment.” With the exception of the number, is it fair to say it sounds like he’s referring to Gitmo? Once the Patriot Act is fully instated, I’m sure the numbers will get up there. Hey, but they’re only basic liberties guaranteed by your Constitution…no worries right?

And I certainly do not take human rights lightly. I care very much about them. That’s one of the reasons I’m proud of being a Canuck. We’re pretty accepting people – see dope smoking, same-sex marriages, etc.

5. You skipped it. It dealt with the US trumping up a militant of some kind then attacking him later. A review of American foreign policy pretty much makes this one irrefutable.

6. If it’s immoral to leave Iraq in shambles upon packing up the big top and moving on, can you tell me what re-building is going on in Afghanistan right now, other than the oil pipelines that were being built before the invasion? I think it’s great what the US is doing for the people it had been bombing for the past 3 months, I won’t take that away from you. But it still doesn’t answer why Haliburton (I know you like that one) is getting such massive contracts. Perhaps you saw the first Gulf War, but us Canucks are pretty good at putting out oil fires as well.

As a further note, I would also like to point out that Cheney is still receiving deferred payments from Haliburton that actually equal what he is paid to be Vice-President. He’ll get them for three more years. To say financial ties are cut isn’t really accurate. Besides, it wasn’t as if they fired him, so I’m sure they’re still on good terms. But I admit that’s conjecture.

Election vs. Selection debate. OK I won’t bother. But as I said before, I’m not sure what proof you’re referring to. Read the first few chapters of MM’s “Stupid White Men” for a good, compact synopsis of what happened.

Regarding your closing paragraph about people shouting and such. I was speaking in a soft, non-confrontational voice in all of my e-mails thus far…it’s the Canadian way, eh? And as I mentioned at the start of my e-mail please represent my arguments fairly, and don’t offer the FOX NEWS summary – no where did I suggest this whole thing was as simple as Haliburton getting a few contracts.

How dare you mock the Queen’s English…

Enjoy.

#127 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on September 24, 2003 02:30 PM

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Another great link Beatnik... http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm

#128 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on September 24, 2003 03:29 PM

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Wow, these just get longer and longer!

I do want to point out that I think it's unfair for you to claim that I "answered none of your points." *sigh* Really, this is a little bit rude. With the exception of point 5 (which I missed), I feel that I've been pretty clear here. I also think you're "missing the point" when I talk about bringing democracy to the Middle East, and you sidestep into the 2000 election.

One thing you keep doing is adding new, non-Iraq related material to the mix. While I am glad that you have a large collection of issues that you're interested in, please recognize that so far you have brought out the 2000 election, Clinton's impeachment, the Kyoto treaty, Grenada, Guantanamo, the Patriot Act, and a host of other topics that, while interesting, seem like they're way outside of the scope of the war in Iraq.

Of the six new reasons you listed, I only find number 6 convincing. This whole business about the "same cast" is silly - this is Bush's Sec. of State and VP! You can't really mean that they were pre-selected "in case" we got an excuse to attack poor, hapless Iraq... can you? Still, you don't represent these reasons as anything other than conjecture, so it's fair to throw out whatever you like.

Haliburton: when you said, "it appears to have been initiated to secure oil supplies and help Bush Sr's associates line their pockets ...(Haliburton)" I will admit that you're allowing that it might have also been about oil. So you were originally attributing the war to Haliburton AND our greedy, grapsing pursuit of oil. My mistake. :)

1. As I stated above, the search for WMD continues. He had them at one time, used them on many occasions, murdered his own citizens with them, and continued to represent them.

2. You skipped 2. Note that I will not accuse you of "not answering any of my points." :)

2a. It looks like you got confused here, since the chemical weapons stuff was part of 1. Anyway, you're giving me the ol' "Yeah, but..." and moving on to the use of Agent Orange in the Vietnam War. Wow! What were talking about? I've forgotten... oh yes, Iraq!

Yes, chemical weapons were employed during the Vietnam War 30+ years ago. This does not invalidate the fact that Saddam possessed and used WMD against his enemies as well as his own people. Therefore, this reason for the war stands, whether or not Vietnam occurred.

3. Well, I still hope you were being facetious about the Canada part (we're really talking about a long time ago with that one!) It seems like the statute of limitations on the Great Canadian Invasion has run out, but Granada is recent enough to count. This was America's signal to the Soviet Union that it was not free to initiate coups and set up Communist dictatorships in our back yard. Cold War politics aside, how can you justify the invasion of Kuwait in the same way?

4. How about this, let's see if we can find something to agree on here. I get the feeling that we're not far off (seriously!)

My point: Iraq was a horrific violator of human rights. This needed to be stopped. In addition to other reasons, this is a reason that tips the scales in favor of action, rather than inaction. Saddam would not have given up on his own, so in order for the killing and torture to stop, he had to be removed.

Your point: Supporting nasty dictators is bad business. It's ironic when it blows up in your face.

I definitely agree that it's nasty business. Helping Iraq against Iran occurred after our embassy had been seized and American hostages taken. Right or wrong? Exercise for the reader.

Keep in mind that we had to side with the Soviet Union against Germany in WW2 (a horrific bunch that had just gotten through slaughtering millions of its own people.) But clearly, it had to be done. I can't promise you any easy answers on that.

What is unambiguous was the continued Iraqi violations of fundamental human rights. To say that the presence of ever-fattening Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters in Guantanamo strips us of the moral authority to stop mass murder simply doesn't make sense. (By the way, Constitutional protections apply to American citizens, not illegal combatants.)

5. Notice that you didn't say, "Saddam's not doing that!" Instead you did a "yeah, but..." If you want to point out perceived hypocrisy, that's fine, but this does not invalidate the fact that Saddam provided extensive funding and support for terrorists.

What active terrorist group did the United States continue to fund after it repeatedly blew up innocent women and children? This is what Saddam did until he was removed.

As for your larger point about the US "setting up" dictatorships and then tearing them down, unless Saddam's gov was a dictatorship that we "set up" ourselves, this sounds more like an attack on past US foreign policy. A fine topic for another discussion, but my point still stands - Saddam funded terrorists.

6. Ayiee, I'm almost out of time over here, but in Afghanistan, we are rebuilding roads and schools even as you and I sit here and type. I am confused as to what else you want here... were you unaware of this?

Before I go, I want to make clear that when I referred to shouting, I wasn't referring to you (even though it totally sounded that way.) Post-war spoils is a legit issue in any conflict, and there are some very shrill voices in this country that are presenting conspiracy theories. I believe that these serve only to get in the way of a healthy discussion on this topic. So I meant to criticize your content rather than your tone - apologies.

And hey, what's up with the Fox News crack? I thought that you folks up North didn't get angry? :) And I really do think neighbor with a "u" is cute!

#129 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 24, 2003 05:16 PM

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Micheal Moore is one of the best authors in our century. His books are really the best one's i have read in the last years. Bowling for columbine is really a great movie.
I really like Michael Moore for his opinions about the USA. I personally do come from the USA, I am from Germany in the so called "Old Europe". Not only I'm from Germany, I'm from Eastern Germany, the former GDR. Thats the reason why I am an anti-capitalist. I hate all capitilist an overall I hate George W. Bush and all the whose like your fucking president.
Greetz from Germany!

#130 - Posted by: Martin on September 27, 2003 03:17 PM

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I don't think that "Martin" could have summed up Michael Moore's fan base any better than that. And a former East German that's anti-capitalist? Highly dubious. You've (supposedly) lived through Stalinist socialism, so if you preferred it to capitalism (which no one in their right mind would), there's always the "worker's paradise" of North Korea for you to try. Happy breadline-standing!

#131 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 29, 2003 10:54 AM

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Seeing all of these people say they hate Michael Moore is, well, a sight I am not surprised to see. Of course there will be an opposition to Moore's productions, it's natural. What's also natural is people not thinking for themselves. The United States gave Iraq weapons as well as Iran, it trained bin Laden, and it has made no progress in the "war" on terror. Remember when Bush said there were strong links between Saddam and Osama? Rumsfeld, or one of the Bush Administration members, said recently that there is no hard evidence of links between either of those two.

You want to talk about hypocrisy, look at the Administration. If you all think the United States is the shit, please, realise we're the youngest country on the planet when looking at all the major ones, such as the United Kingdom, Russia, and China, you know, other big countries.

Here's a question: Why did Charlton Heston WALK AWAY from Moore in his OWN HOUSE? Answer me that!

#132 - Posted by: Trent C on September 29, 2003 11:55 AM

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"The United States trained Bin Laden" This has been thoroughly debunked. Hey, don't even take my word for it. You can hear it from Osama himself.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98115,00.html

And no Iraq-Al Qaeda connection? I don't think any admin. official has "recently" stated this. You must mean that officials have offered no hard links to 9-11 from Iraq, which is true. We've talked about this above a lot, too. As for Al-Qaeda links see above comments, or check this link.
http://techcentralstation.com/092503F.html

We've also talked pretty thoroughly about the progress made in the war on terror above. To say "no progress" has been made is fun and partisan to say, I'm sure, but it's still a completely silly statement based on wishful thinking. If you assert that "no progress" has been made in the war on terror, jump right into my conversation with Q.

Your "young country" point is on very, very shaky ground. When you say Russia, do you mean the USSR? Because that's gone now. Or maybe you meant Russia itself, which by any definition has a very young government. Some countries may have older names, but our system of government is not young by comparison. Can you name a liberal democracy older than our own? If not, it hardly seems fair to disquality us from being "the shit."

#133 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 29, 2003 02:53 PM

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Beatnik,

This cross-border banter we have going is a treat, it�s nice to hear things from a Yank�s perspective that isn�t Paula Zahn. I must say, much like George W. at a meeting of the UN � you concede nothing.

I actually think that most of the reasons I gave were rather convincing but I guess that�s a matter of opinion and we�ll have to move on.

However, I would like to address the idea you have brought up in several of your correspondences regarding my supposed side-stepping of arguments and referencing of other incidents. It�s really not a case of me missing the point, it�s merely a way of trying to prove my belief of someone�s current motives by pointing out past behaviour (yep, that�s �our� as well, eh.)

I think I�m justified in using this method in my arguments against Bush�s (uhhh) non-UN-sanctioned and therefore, illegal war on Iraq. I would argue that when dealing with the President�s record, we�re not talking about a guy who�s played it down the middle his whole life (I won�t cite examples here, so you cannot say I�m side-stepping.) Further, some of the US�s interventions in the past have been a little bit dodgy at times, and I think that�s why people, such as myself, are a little wary.

To explain why I brought up:
2000 election � Because the guy who has led you into this war, wasn�t elected. It was a farce (see below). I don�t see how a country with non-elected leader expects to teach democracy to another country.

Clinton's impeachment � It was only a sidebar within other points, but since you mention it�that whole thing was ridiculous and showed how petty and desperate the Republicans were/are. A blowjob in the Oval Office pales in comparison to what we�re seeing these days.

Kyoto Protocol � Again, a brief sidebar at the time, but a pretty good example of Bush and by extension, the US, thumbing its nose at the global community.

Grenada � Operation: Urgent Fury (they were using catchy names then too) sounds similar to the most recent war, Operation: Iraqi Freedom � the US imposing its ideological will on a sovereign state.

Guantanamo � I�m not sure how you can�t see the connection here. Didn�t you think it was humourous, Rumsefeld getting all bent out of shape over those Iraqi television interviews with the US soldiers and then shots of those �unlawful combatants� in Gitmo being shown on tv months later? Hypocrisy.

Patriot Act � To defend against terror, same as the war. Very connected.

As a note, by your definition, the term illegal combatants you have used to describe the apparently portly prisoners at Gitmo (it�s curious that most people on this site talk so disparagingly about weight considering: link ) could be applied to that darling of US military might, Jessica Lynch and the rest of the US ground troops, could it not? Hope that�s not too much of a leap in logic.

BTW pass on my congrats to Private Lynch for her million dollars in hush money, sorry, book deal � hope her life�s memoirs aren�t as foggy as her memories of that harrowing (ahem, staged) rescue. No need to eye roll, remember those babies in the incubators from the first Gulf War? (Can I reference the previous Gulf War in our discussion?) You want to talk eye rolling? I remember when her sugary sweet face was plastered on every paper in this hemisphere. Happened about the same time things got bogged down over there. Funny how those made-for tv movies were, for the most part, quietly shelved when the actual events surrounding her �rescue� came out.

My point about the same cast of characters is not suggesting they were brought in, in the hopes that a war would start and they could make Hummer-loads of money. Rather, that they had sufficient pull (or push) in convincing Bush to go to war to clear up unfinished business.

In my opinion the so-called �yeah but��, as you phrase it, argument is a fairly legitimate one. The US has a tendency to lash out against countries for doing things they themselves are guilty of and often to a greater extent. I�m not saying �yeah but�� to suggest that Iraq is right in doing what it did, just the pointing out the irony in the American position. (ie �it was fine to gas Kurds (even using our battle plans) when you were fighting on our side.�) Related to that, I found this nugget, from my own hometown rag: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1779.htm

And a friend sent this along: link - a bit long-winded I admit, but an interesting take on the selection/election issue (but of course, it has nothing to do with our chat about Iraq, I just thought you would enjoy it.)

And what the heck, to indulge you about Haliburton, because I know it�s a favourite of yours: http://www.dangerouscitizen.com/Articles/885.aspx

Though I respect Martin�s opinion, I would like to distance myself from his anti-democracy stance�a little harsh.

Yer neigh-bor.

#134 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on September 29, 2003 05:56 PM

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I'll try to respond tomorrow, Canuck (a little on the busy side right now), but I was wondering where all of the people I've been sparring with lately have been coming from? Not a hostile question by any means, just genuinely curious how so many people happened upon this post, particularly international folks. I'm here because I happened upon the letter randomly while doing my regular perusal of Frank's site.

#135 - Posted by: Beatnik Joe on September 29, 2003 06:21 PM

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I entered, "I hate Michael Moore" to see what would come up...I like to hear what the other side is up to from time to time. Of course, I read Frank's truly un-funny hate mail piece (I like satire as much as the next guy - I'm a Canuck for gawd's sake) and I decided to check out the chat room. Felt it was a good opp to learn what a pro-Bush person's thoughts were on the war, post-war.

May I recommend another site (though I'm sure you've been there)? www.theonion.com has brilliant satire, and their book collections are clever s*. 'Our Dumb Century' is a must-read. Much like 'Bowling for...' is a must watch, but a little less partisan.

The floor is yours.

#136 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on September 29, 2003 07:41 PM

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About the CIA-funding of bin Laden, I will back off on that until I find evidence for either side. One article is not enough to refute what I've read such as Gore Vidal's "Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace" essay. I will get back to that one.

On the Iraqi-al Qaeda connection, well, that's been fishy. Just because there were al Qaeda operatives in Iraq doesn't mean Iraq supported the terrorism. I read somewhere that if Saddam would have helped Osama in any way, he would have Osama's family locked up in Iraq to ensure he did not screw up. When I find out where I read that, I will give you the source. (I believe it was retired General Wesley Clark, who has more background in foreign affairs than Bush)

About the so-called war on Iraq, well, the evidence is shaky, and has been said to have been false by Administration officials (link)

I haven't read the argument on the "war on terror" making progress, but I need some evidence. A reason some some of the terrorist factions hate us is our way of dealing with things. You cannot successfully deal with a threat with threats without it eventually backfiring. You cannot fight fire with fire, violence with violence, or stupidity with stupidity.

And this liberal democracy is more or less a socialist democracy. We claimed land that did not belong to us and call it the greatest nation on Earth. I'm not saying I'm anti-American, I'm just opposed to how most American's see the world: lower than them. "Fuck the French" "fuck the germans" "Fuck the japs" Sorry if you have contempt for civilisations that have existed long before most of our ancestors even knew the "Americas" existed.

If we have failed to bring democracy to pretty much every nation we have tried to, then why do you expect Iraq will be any different. And please, do not call me unpatriotic or say that I am not supporting the troops. I would rather the troops of America be concentrating on actually defending the United States instead of invading a little coffee spot on the globe.

Did I mention we have more artillary than the next five most powerful nations combined? Why do we need all that fire power? Why do we need so many nuclear weapons that we can blow up the world five times over? Why are we so bilgerent to anyone who dissents?

#137 - Posted by: Trent C on September 30, 2003 12:57 AM

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Just read Martin's post. Maybe there's something about the rumor that east german's are more stupid then west german's after all. He's an anti-capitalist because he lived in the former GDR. Wow. I always thought this gives a better reason to become an anti-communist. See what happened before the Berlin wall came down. It didn't seem like everybody there was happy with the system. I have to admit to beatnik joe, if you liked it so much, either go to north korea or to albania, to my knowledge the last european communist state. I just want to distance myself from Martin, since he is one of many who just blames someone without saying even why.

#138 - Posted by: Q on October 2, 2003 02:06 PM

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P.S. You want to know why so many people came to this post? here's the answer:
1. go to yahoo.com
2. type in "michael moore hate"
3. see for yourself :-)

#139 - Posted by: Q on October 2, 2003 02:09 PM

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so. I read the letter and then read the comments and was shocked to discover so many people being utter twats (thats twots to americans) and agreeing with these ill thought out objections to one of the few people who can make it onto american mass media and tell the truth. Thank you to thoes of you who have taken the time to respond critically to this unfounded hatred

#140 - Posted by: stevs on October 6, 2003 09:50 AM

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Just thought I'd post my last e-mail to Mike.
This was the last in a series of 10 I'd sent to the stuffed socialist. He has yet to reply to any of the e-mails I've sent. He's much too busy, I imagine.

Here goes:

Hey Mike!!

It's been a while, and I must say that I've been very remiss in my correspondence. Please forgive me.

After some careful perusal of some of your past projects, Bowling for Columbine, Stupid White Men, etc., I could only come to the conclusion that you're even more full of shit than I ever thought you were. But that's OK. You don't have to relate the truth; you just have to be funny!

Maintain the meds, OK? Stay healthy.

I included my name, but for security reasons, I'll not post it here.

Great blog, Frank.

#141 - Posted by: brinster on October 10, 2003 09:12 AM

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Wow, people have turned this post into their own personal message board.

#142 - Posted by: Big Dog on October 12, 2003 04:34 PM

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you are all morons, if you had half a brain you'd realize how stupid and hateful you are, then realize that michael moore is not only a great person, but a funny, thruthful dude. and all you overly religious "christians" need to get over it. shut the fuck up, and leave us normal people alone. christ was way cooler than you......

#143 - Posted by: donkey on October 18, 2003 01:54 AM

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I love trying to get MM to help your sister get a job! As a liberal, ostensibly tolerant of all viewpoints, he ought to help her, too.

#144 - Posted by: John Salmon on October 18, 2003 01:56 AM

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I hadn't commented previously, but now I feel obligated, having seen donkey's idiotic statement.

First, thanks for calling everyone morons, it really adds gravity to your later statements and claims.

Second, you had the audacity to call Michael Moore "great", as well as "thruthful". I question the mental capacity of a person unable to spell the word 'truthful'. Also, if you carefully look at Michael Moore's "truthful" work that was "Bowling for Columbine" you'll realize that he took liberties that would make the Chinese propaganda machine cringe.
Specifically, his lovely little cut and paste edit jobs with Charlton Heston's speeches; designed to look like a single event, and yet Heston's tie changes. The backgrounds also change. Yeah.... that wasn't a blatant attempt to mislead people. Too bad it worked.

People like you shouldn't be allowed to make statements, because you're a known quantity. When your mouth opens, whatever comes out is useless, polluting stupidity that other stupid people agree with. You are, in layman's terms, an asshat. Congratulations, you're a fool.

#145 - Posted by: smartfud on October 19, 2003 12:52 PM

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Hey, Micheal Moore is a Moron, who fictionalizes everything he touches. He twists the truth on the Columbine movie, so anything he does is reasonably suspect.

#146 - Posted by: Lurch Addams on October 20, 2003 12:38 PM

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Smartfud, though I do enjoy the cheese flavoured popcorn that is your namesake, your generalizing about MM's "Bowling..." lacks the substance of those tasty, air-popped, white cheddar flavoured morsels. Big f, he did some selective editing to get his point across. I don't think it confuses Moses' message at all. In fact, it's probably a more cohesive job than the thought processes going on in Heston's obviously feebled mind.

Ever watch a military briefing, or a Presidential address? Perhaps they’re a little closer to the Chinese spin doctoring you referred to.

As a somewhat relevant sidebar, I had the pleasure of visiting your fair country this Sunday for a distraction-of-the-masses-from-how-depressing-your-lives-really-are-because-you-live-in-Buffalo event, otherwise known as a Bills game (I think Huxley would liken it to going to the 'Feelies'.)

Great game: Smith's homecoming, Bills coming off a humbling loss to the Jets the week previous. There was an electricity in the air. Too bad I missed the first half of the game b/c I was in a three-hour traffic jam at the border trying to get through customs. And after that three-hour wait, were we greeted by a courteous ambassador of the US of A dressed in an authentic cowboy getup? Nope. Just two heavily armed guys with drug sniffing rottwieller and a border guard perched in a booth with an inflated sense of self worth. It was nice to be treated like a criminal when I’m coming down to do my part for your crumbling economy.

Flash to the end of the game. As we meandered through the crowds of inebriated Buffalo (-neans, -ites) who were urinating on the sidewalk, rows of idling stretched (as if they could manage to be more obnoxious vehicles) Hum V’s, and assorted contained chemical fires…it became apparent to me why so much of the world dislikes my un-kempt neighbour (for you Beatnik,) to the south.

You see, despite all of us knowing our share of nice Americans (in my case almost all are transplanted Canadians), it’s only the assholes that are working the visitor information booth so to speak. So all the world gets to see are these crass, bring’em on and f* everyone else blowhards. It’s a shame really.

Wandering back to our car as helicopters circled over head and a thick haze of car exhaust and burning wood and plastic (quick, summon Commander Tom, North Tonawanda is on fire) descended on the masses I couldn’t help wonder a) why Yanks think they’re the s* and b) what exactly the woman at the border with the rubber gloves was trying to protect.

Epilogue
Dudley Do-Right met us at our border to welcome us back. “Hey guys. Where you coming from? Good game? Where are you headed? Have good night.” Ahh home.

#147 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on October 20, 2003 02:58 PM

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Dude, I'm all in favor of world peace, freedom to disagree with authority, etc. But this guy is a fucking moron. I still don't understand how anyone could have objected to the war in Iraq.

Personally, I don't think we'll find weapons there-Saddam's probably distributed them into the black market by now. And in retrospect, I think he set us up to further tarnish America's image. BUt for me, it was enough just to remove him from power. This is a guy who literally JERKED OFF while people were tortured and killed in front of him.

I'm a Democrat. I admit I don't agree with several Republican policies, and Bush isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. He has made many mistakes. But at the same time, he has more of a backbone than Clinton had, and he certainly isn't the warmongering tyrant that Hitler-and Saddam-are.

We should send Moore over to the Middle-East. Seeing as he's so "politically minded," maybe he should see the dictatorships he's supporting firsthand. With any luck, he'd complain, get arrested, and then get tortured and murdered by (put arab nation's name here). Then we wouldn't have to hear the greaseball whine anymore.

#148 - Posted by: Itzcoatl57 on October 26, 2003 12:06 AM

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Frank-
I think that the e-mail that you wrote Michael Moore shows just how intelligent you really aren't. You failed to mention anything about any real reason that you hate him. I mean the piece of garbage that you wrote was so pathetic, is that all you could come up with? All that I gathered from your ridiculous e-mail to Mr. Moore was that you hate fat people, so are you saying that you hate half of the United States? The U.S. is full of fat people. I mean I hate President Bush, but do you see me writing him an e-mail saying that I hate him so horribly bad because he wore a ugly tie with his suit the last time I saw him on TV? No, if I were going to waste my time writing President Bush it would be to give him reasons behind all the hate. In fact I personally wont go into all the many many reasons why I hate President Bush because it would take way too much of my time. I mean if I did do it there would have been at least a damn reason. You just sat there and wasted your time writing that e-mail to Michael Moore when I am sure that when or if he read it I am pretty positive that the man was not crying and indeed laughing at your ignorance. I mean are you a moron or something? I just recently started finding out about Michael Moore and have become a real fan of his, the only reason I even ended up on this site was because before I actually started standing behind what he believes in I thought I would look up what bad things people have had to say about him as far as his issues. Well so far thanks to a few idiots such as you I have not been able to find any valid reason NOT to like him. Matter of fact, I think I like him even more now than before I read your pathetic e-mail. So I guess all I can say now would be thanks! Just as I thought MICHAEL MOORE IS GREAT! I think I may just click right on over to amazon.com right now to buy his new book "Dude, Where's My Country?" so at least I would have something meaningful to read instead of this garbage! :)

#149 - Posted by: Rachel on October 26, 2003 02:03 AM

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Indeed Rachel. I've been a MM fan since Roger and Me and I stumbled upon this site when looking to see how the other side thought. It's pretty much all name-calling from what I have read.

Itzcoatl57: Yeah, that sounds pretty logical. From Saddam’s participation in the attempted assassination of the Iraqi Prime Minister in 1959, to the 1990 invasion of Kuwait, it’s all been about tarnishing the reputation of you Yanks. In fact, to put a little more egg on the face of the Americans he tricked you into funding him in his war with Iran, including setting up that photo opp with Rumsfeld in 1983, and convincing you to provide him with the ingredients to create the biological weapons that you eventually had to blow his country up to not find (tough to follow?) Very devious of him.

With regards to the “JERKING OFF” comment, there’s no doubt we’re dealing with a sick individual (though I’d like to know your source on that story.) However, let’s not forget, in George W’s five years as governor of Texas, the state executed 131 prisoners after he signed off on them – by far, more than any other state in the same time.

Though I certainly don’t agree with the tortuous and maiming punishments that are common in Middle Eastern law, the American record is not above reproach. Illinois placed a moratorium on state murder when it was discovered by a group of students(!) that 13 people on death row were found to be innocent. Is someone any less guilty who kills “just” one innocent person than one who kills hundreds?

BTW. I don’t think GW really has that much more back bone than Slick Willy. At least Clinton is fairly upfront about his draft dodging. What bravery I must ask, does it take for GW to send people off to fight his wars for him? Now, if he hopped in a fighter jet a la “Independence Day” and bombed some Iraqi warhead installations, then I would be slightly impressed. Instead, when his call to duty came he hid behind his daddy, dodging real combat and prison time (three arrests and counting) throughout the ‘70s and into the ‘80s

Finally, I’m not sure why you classify MM as a moron. Have you even bothered to sit and listen to or read his arguments? They’re all there in his books and movies. A guy giving out his well-thought opinion and backing it up doesn’t render him a moron. Believing everything that comes out of your president’s mouth when the facts obviously contravene him, that seems moronic to me. As Rachel points out, I’ve yet to read any effective rebuttals to MM’s position, just comments about his appearance.

#150 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on October 27, 2003 10:58 AM

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I am German and I loved Frank's joke!!! It is great. And I agree: Michael Moore is a fucknozzle. By the way: Q can't be better informed. I know the German media best. So he is just repeating the bullshit they tell us here every day. Don't be offended. He is just a German "Gutmensch" (Good human being).

#151 - Posted by: Rike on October 30, 2003 05:17 PM

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My mom used to say that everyone had a purpose in life, a reason that God made them the way they did.

If that's true, I asked her, then why did the Good Lord make Michael Moore.

That had her stumped.

Fifteen years went by without an answer.

But now she can go to her grave and rest in peace because I now know why Moore exists: so that you would be inspired to write the funniest damn thing I have ever read.

#152 - Posted by: J.P. Carter on November 1, 2003 01:53 AM

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I maybe a large man, but I find no reason to attack innocent Leprechans. I agree that there may have been a few 'bad apples' in the case of the movies, 'Leprechan I, Leprechan II and Leprechan III. However blatent racism is just proving you to be more of a moron that expected. GOOD DAY

#153 - Posted by: Micheal Moore on November 4, 2003 09:12 AM

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To "I'm a Canuck":

If Bush hopped in a fighter jet a la “Independence Day” and bombed some Iraqi warhead installations, you'd only be SLIGHTLY IMPRESSED?

So if I came to Canada and shot the first hockey player I saw, would you be VAGUELY IMPRESSED?

I don't know if that analogy really works; I just think it'd be cool to shoot a hockey player.

#154 - Posted by: on November 12, 2003 10:41 PM

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Dear nameless,

Unfortunately that analogy doesn't work, but I'm very impressed at your effort. Your remedial English teacher must be quite pleased with your progress.

As a word of warning, you better make sure you're using a shotgun to shoot the Gretzkys and Lemieuxs that roam downtown Canada. As I'm sure you're aware, we're not allowed to, and don't really have any desire to, carry handguns around up here. In fact we post a sign at the border - right near the miles/kilometers conversion chart - stating just that in simple English so even the dimmest of y'all can understand it.

I WAS impressed with GW's landing on the Abe Licoln in May to declare the end of major combat in Iraq. I was MORE impressed that he could have just as easily taken a helicopter out to the ship and the great vessel was forced to do lazy circles out in the ocean so San Diego couldn't be seen in the background. I was EVEN MORE impressed to learn it cost you guys about a million dollars to pull off. And I continue to be impressed with the on-going finger pointing over the "Mission Accomplished" sign that framed your valiant prez. So you see, I can be impressed.

Check out Sheldon Rampton's "Weapons of Mass Deception" for some more interesting reading on the subject.

I could go on, as I tend to, but I don't want to keep you. I'm sure as a gun-toting American you'll be wanting to get a good seat for the Terminator's swearing in ceremony. Hasta la vista is how it goes I think.

#155 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on November 17, 2003 11:05 AM

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What I find absolutely amazing, through most of these posts, is how close minded so many of these people can be. I read the hate mail, and, as a JOKE, it was funny. Taken in jest, funny. For someone to have so much hatred for a man that speaks his opinion, however, not so funny. It doesn't matter if you make jokes about it, if the hatred is there, which, for some of you, it obviously is, then I fear for the human race.

I also can't believe how many bullying tactics have gone on throughout the life of this thread. Do americans seriously feel the need to prove to everyone that they could blow up the world if they were so inclined?(Read: stupid) Someone mentioned that The US will do whatever it feels like to retain it's "unique style of freedom." Is this at the expense of the rest of the world?? So if france pisses you off once more, will you attack them too??? take over euro disney?? You've conquered Iraq, now you've got access to cheaper oil, what next??? Japan, so you can get cheaper cell phones and dvd players??? Do you really think you could take over the world to preserve your "unique freedoms??" you know what?? You might be able to do that. Good luck with the nuclear winter.

It's really a shame that So many Right wing americans seem to have no conscience at all. Pull the wool off your eyes, quit looking at the red cape in the matadors hand, for god's sake, Grow up. You're not the centre of the world, you're just a part of it. Live in it, don't try to take it over.

#156 - Posted by: Dark_Canuck on November 19, 2003 05:30 AM

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Dear Rike, I just have read your post, and now I wonder, where do you get your information from? I mean, I'm open to new views, and if it's right that I'm just repeating the bullshit they tell us here every day, quote, then please tell me where I can get better informations. Please don't tell me to read US news, because I don't want to read about the bullshit they tell them there every day. I'm not offended at all. I just don't think that I'm a Gutmensch, if that means that I'm just believing in good things like the victory of good over evil or fairies and elfs and all those fluffy things. I think my opinion is quite clear, and it doesn't just consist of anything I hear in the German media. By the way, please tell what leads you to the conclusion that you know the German media best. And don't be offended.

#157 - Posted by: Q on November 20, 2003 04:59 AM

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I like rice

#158 - Posted by: right rinngers suck on November 20, 2003 02:16 PM

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Canuck: Japan doesn't make cellphones, and they don't make the cheapest DVD players.

#159 - Posted by: Fred on November 22, 2003 06:52 PM

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I'm a conservative and I just have to say what is the matter with lieberales? They want to give my stuff to poor lazy bums. It's my money and you sick dying people can't have it!

#160 - Posted by: doug Bunot on November 24, 2003 02:18 PM

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My fate3r is an idiot.

#161 - Posted by: taylor bunot on November 24, 2003 02:22 PM

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Good job. Don't look at the forest, because one tree doesn't look right. Try again, son, see if you can come up with an actual response to the content, rather than the choice of examples used.

#162 - Posted by: Dark_Canuck on November 25, 2003 04:55 AM

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go fuck a pig

#163 - Posted by: Taylor Bunot on November 26, 2003 01:01 PM

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Speaking of fucking a pig, tell your mom to quit phoning my house.

#164 - Posted by: Dark_Canuck on November 27, 2003 05:37 AM

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the comment's in here are very odd. In response to the letter you should get a speel check. And you prove the poiont that we are a nation of hate filled bastereds. Hell' I'm one of them. But why can't we stop this. Respect the man for what hee's done. I'm a liberale and I respect O'Riley for the things he's done for children. Why can't you see the good things he's done for a few people?

Yours,
Kevin Duncan

P.S. I know the Bunot people and His father is a dumb-ass

#165 - Posted by: Kevin Duncan on December 2, 2003 02:15 PM

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in response to Dark_Canuck commet, is he saying he's a pig?

#166 - Posted by: anthony Hardes on December 3, 2003 12:27 PM

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If you can't figure it out, I'm not about to bother explaining it to you, because I'm sure it would be lost on you anyway.

#167 - Posted by: Dark_Canuck on December 4, 2003 12:40 AM

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Hello

damn commies

damn democrates

damn republicans

nascar sucks

goodbey

#168 - Posted by: dave on December 5, 2003 10:57 AM

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TO ALL WHO HATED THIS LETTER

I love America because of Freedoms. I can have my OWN OPINION. It could be something seemingly trivial, such as thinking Michael Moore is fat ugly man, or something extreme, like hating Jews(which is NOT one of my opinions). In any case, my opinion is my own, and not what other people want me to think.

Why is it that Michael Moore can speak out on his opinions but not Frank J? It's not like Frank's forcing you to take his opinion. He's stating it as a parody. If Michael Moore hasn't learned to accept criticism and "mindless hate mail" by now, then he truly hasn't reached a celebrity status. Do you think he would break down and cry and commit suicide after reading this, or would he accept it as a consequence of having an opinion at all? Wherever you stand on any issue, there will be someone who opposes you, and you MUST learn to live with it. There are simply too many arguments for both sides for one opinion to prevail.

I don't care if Frank J's statements were insensitive, they were hilarious and he has a right to have them.

#169 - Posted by: right wing young'un on December 5, 2003 10:15 PM

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Just another note:
People are not "stupid" or any other creative name if you disagree with them. If they refuse to accept logic and reason, then they may be labeled stupid TO A CERTAIN POINT.

It's like saying an entire genre of music is stupid because it doesn't sound like the others. But if someone loves this genre of music, logic and reason may not sway this person.

My point is, if you have an opinion, please back it up with some credible reasons.

#170 - Posted by: right wing young'un on December 5, 2003 10:21 PM

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Ur certainly correct there right wing young'un (too bad). Michael Moore, while relaxing on his giant pile of money, probably gives a rat's a* what people such as Frank J have to say about his appearance. And considering over half of your population is overweight, I'm sure MM feels quite comfortable with his body when he has a look around. My beef isn't with people saying he's a fatso - how lame is that - what's annoyoing is how pathetic the political commentary is in your country that things get reduced to visuals all the time - I mean Ah-nold is the governor of the 5th largest economy in the hemisphere...no need to say more.

With regards to your comments about people having a right to their own opinions, perhaps you should sit down and have a chat with John Ashcroft sometime and see how much he values those rights. I suppose you would be fine being a right-winger, but anyone contra to that better shut it, ask Bill Mahar and the Dixie Chicks.

Honestly, I really wouldn't care what you folks did down there, (you make for good entertainment) it's just that you keep f*ing up the rest of the world's s*.

#171 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on December 8, 2003 02:30 PM

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Very true. It's great that you can say that you have the right to your own opinion and freedom of speech and all that, but that all seems contradictory when reading through this entire message board.

Once again, I understand that the hate mail was done in jest, and as a matter of fact, is quite funny. What ISN'T funny, and is quite sad, actually, is the number of posts after the letter that are so obviously filled with true hatred for someone they don't even know, just because he has a different opinion than they do. Michael Moore is NOT an evil person. Neither is Frank J. Why, then, is there so much hatred for either one of them??

It's amazing how contradictory so many right wingers are. Their steadfast belief in the constitution, and the freedoms, and the fucking national unity are so skewed by their blindsided hatred for anyone that disagrees with them. It's hypocrisy at it's finest (ugliest?) Freedom of Speech is a two way street.

On another note, I know I should know this, but who is John Ashcroft??

#172 - Posted by: Dark_Canuck on December 8, 2003 11:09 PM

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Dark_Canuck

i applaud your response. All these warwhores are only interested in people like them. Maybe they are just afraid of change, they are happy with thier own lives, so why should they question the fairness of the system they live in?

Michael Moore is not evil. Neither is any fact in his film 'Bowling for Columbine' incorrect. He had a team of lawyers going through each and every fact in the film. He has had no law suits filled against him to this date, and believe me, he would have had them.

Right wing young'un

Do you really think Michael Moore is trying to achieve celebrity status? Not every one is an oppurtunist like you.

His own opinion is never "shoved" down your throat and ALWAYS upon to debate. He has pissed of a lot of people, namely the NRA, and they have sunk to the level of knowingly creating lies to get some credit on thier behalf.

They have sunk to insulting him because they know, if it came to it, in debate they would have no legs to stand on. I do not neccesarily believe in his political ideals, but facts are facts all the same, and that alone is going to piss off some very powerful people. We haven't seen the last of Michael Moore.

#173 - Posted by: conservative on December 9, 2003 01:53 PM

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"I love America because of Freedoms. I can have my OWN OPINION"

Isnt this why the fuckin websites called IMAO?

(in my arrogant opinion)

#174 - Posted by: pete on December 9, 2003 10:55 PM

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Please Canadians come down to Utah and get me out of here

#175 - Posted by: Allen on December 10, 2003 09:31 AM

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My fellow Canadian:

John Ashcroft is the Attorney General of the US of A. He’s a leading force behind perhaps one the US’s scariest and most ironically named pieces of legislation – the USA PATRIOT Act. You know the yanks love their acronyms, so if you can believe it, USA PATRIOT Act actually stands for Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001 – see, I told you Americans are entertaining. It grants the gov’t powers such as: without a warrant and without probable cause, the FBI can access your most private medical records, your library records, and your student records... and can prevent anyone from telling you it was done (I stole that from the ACLU site…it’s a good one.) And here’s a nugget from PATRIOT Act II (wasn’t that a movie?): The government would no longer be required to disclose the identity of anyone, even an American citizen, detained in connection with a terror investigation – until criminal charges are filed, no matter how long that takes. Scary s* no doubt.

His nomination to become AG was one of the closest votes for the position in US history and he is well known for his strong pro-life, anti-marijuana, anti-gay stance (pretty much anti-civil liberties if you read the laundry list) wait, as a lifelong member of the NRA he is pro-gun…so there’s one.

Here’s a funny one, see if you can spot the irony: No longer will US Attorney General John Ashcroft appear in public with a semi-nude statue towering above him. The US Justice Department has spent $8,000 on curtains to hide the statue from the cameras. The female, art deco 'Spirit of Justice' statue, with one breast exposed, is located on the podium in the department's ornate Great Hall where news conferences are often held.... This was done for 'aesthetic' reasons, according to Justice Department spokesman Shane Hix, who said the drapes provided a pleasant background for television cameras....
ABC News reported that the decision was taken at the request of the conservative Mr Ashcroft himself.

Hope this helped. Go to http://dossiers.genfoods.net/ashcroft.html for more info. It’s a tad biased, but entertaining.

And if anyone has managed to make it to the end of this long winded diatribe just wanted to send you to a great link on Michael Moore’s site. Along the lines of conservative’s entry, it should clear up all the b.s claims about the falsehoods in MM’s flick: http://michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/ Take into account it’s from his site, but a great defence to the accusations….

BTW Frank J keep up the good work. Great vehicle to talk with yanks….

Oh and Allen, I’ll gladly make the trek to Utah…K. Malone was always my personal favourite even after trading in the purple for gold.

#176 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on December 11, 2003 10:43 AM

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Yeah! I'm saved! Thank you nice Canadian man! Can you also take some of my friends? They don't know what fresh air and an excellent health care plan are.

#177 - Posted by: on December 12, 2003 02:26 PM

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I thing the noun you were looking for was rat-bastard.

#178 - Posted by: spacemonkey on December 17, 2003 02:03 AM

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Aaaaaaaaaaaaah how divided we all stand(big smile). In lack of words or education, throwing insults back and forth, across the virtual playground, at recess, shall definately make us stronger as individuals. I congratulate you personally Frank J, who is so powerful, with his carefully chosen words. At least Michael Moore has the balls to speak out against millions of opposing minds, the US government and bigots such as yourself. He is a leader and signs his name in full with an address, Frank J. Keep the hate alive my friends.

Jeff Niethammer

#179 - Posted by: Jeff Niethammer on December 26, 2003 03:35 PM

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Am I allowed to leave YOU hate mail??? Do you actually think Michael Moore would read something so low and immature? First of all, realize that Mike is a pretty rich guy by now. I doubt he even reads his own mail. Secondly, I think after about the first paragraph, he'd have been done with your letter. I doubt the fat and ugly comments would have done a thing. He knows he is overweight. If he gave a shit, he wouldn't make jokes about it publicly. He also dresses the way he does on purpose, stupid. Why don't you get your facts straight before writing something idiotic and then trying to act like you know something by finding words in the dictionary or thesaurus, like "corpulent?!?" I hardly even have words for people like you, but if I had to use one, it would be ignorant. You are the kind of useless person that sits around and takes up space on this earth, rather than going out and making a difference. GET OFF YOUR ASS AND REALIZE THAT BUSH HAS A PAST WITH THE BIN LADENS! HE KNOWS MORE THAN YOU EVER WILL ABOUT 9/11!!! Read a book, expand your mind, and stop knocking Michael Moore until you know something. Got it?

On another note, "smartfud" so generously pointed out that Michael Moore lies, citing the example of, "his lovely little cut and paste edit jobs with Charlton Heston's speeches." Just one question: were you there??? I am not implying that I was, but you can't say that it was a lie if you don't know. Well, I stand corrected. You can SAY it, but it doesn't make it true. Oh, and anyone who has to call themselves "smartfud" in order to convince the world that they are smart, couldn't be too smart.

#180 - Posted by: Astrid on December 28, 2003 02:57 AM

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I'm still waiting Canadian man. It's geting worse down here. Hatch is starting to speack again. I feel cold.

#181 - Posted by: Allen on January 2, 2004 12:25 PM

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All I am going to say is that I too hate Micheal Moore and that he a fucking nimrod.

#182 - Posted by: Brad on January 4, 2004 03:14 PM

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Brad,
I find it hard to think the way you do. considering you could only use fuck once in eleven words.

#183 - Posted by: i forget on January 5, 2004 02:11 PM

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Sorry for my delay Allen. I was in Cuba - you know the country 90 miles to the south of you that your government won't let you visit because you cherish personal freedom (who says Americans don't understand irony?) - last week avoiding the harsh Canadian winter.

Can't tell you how nice it was to get away from shitty American television programming and listening to bloated yanks discussing the important issues of the day like Kobe and what will happen on the finale of 'Friends'. I'll take crumbling architecture and communist propaganda over low rider pick ups and 60-foot Golden Arches everywhere I look any day.

Anyways. As soon as I can dig out a path from my igloo I'll put on my best pelts and mush the team down to y'or border. Meet at the 49th?

Another beaut: link

#184 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on January 12, 2004 04:21 PM

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Well, hurray!!! And I'm going to ruin the ending to Friends. They all decide to go their sepret ways when Kobe raps them all. (Can you build me an igloo?)

#185 - Posted by: Allen on January 14, 2004 02:12 PM

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Allen. From the looks of your spelling, I can't get down there soon enough to save you from your collapsing public education system. And when you say Kobe "raps" them all, do you mean like Rabbit at the Shelter in 8 Mile, because that was really cool. I hope he disses Ross first.

Sure. Bachelor, one-, or two-bedroom?

http://www.moveon.org/

#186 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on January 16, 2004 09:11 AM

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Then get you;re ax down hier and safe me. one bedroom I'm in school rite now and thre latiing me do this insted of teaching me something like how to spill

#187 - Posted by: Allen on January 16, 2004 11:27 AM

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Clever Allen. Which of your seven wives came up with the idea?

#188 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on January 19, 2004 09:21 AM

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Sleepy. I think snezzy helped. Hey you, Happy, stop that or I'll take all of our kids (32) Bush removal in 04'

#189 - Posted by: on January 20, 2004 09:21 AM

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Mr. canadian man none of those posts are mine. although I'm not a very good speller. but I would like an igloo. I could make one by myself but it would be of poor quality. Do you care who gets the Democratic nod? I have no life. Help me I just learened today what I'm going to learen in my Utah health class. summed up in two wordes it =NO FUN. please you nice Canadians made it posible for my Dad not to go die in Nom. make it possible for me not to have to drink Arsnec.

#190 - Posted by: Allen on January 20, 2004 01:22 PM

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Frank: I PRAY that you actually sent this to Moore--go on, make my day!!

#191 - Posted by: Phil Winsor on January 22, 2004 11:12 AM

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Fuck all of you you all suck lib or con you all were droped on your heads. SCREEEEEEEEEEWWWWW YOOOOOOOOO(OUUUUUUUUUU

#192 - Posted by: on January 23, 2004 12:25 PM

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Astrid: It's a free country. MM has the right to be a moron, just as much as these people do. That's is what makes this the greatest country on earth. Why do you think MM came here to sell his movie and book? MM doesn't have a shread of proof of his accusations other than speculation and rhetoric. These people may be crass, but it is their right to say comical things about you, me, or MM. You have the right to think some comic is right about everything, just as I have a right to think that is short-sighted.

It is true that Bush Sr. knew bin Laden's brother; however, it is fact the Usama hates his brother and would kill him on sight. Just like what happened to Saddam's brothers when they got back to Iraq from visiting the US.

MM continues to ramble on about how terrible America is and its corporate greed, while he get flown around on Soros' corporate jets, exploits the capitalist system, and gets sponsorships and entitlements from the biggest corporate owners in America. He lives the American Dream by disparging it. I have a right to laugh at his hypocracy and admire his ability to market himself in a free-enterprise system.

Your arguments prove my point. MM is full of misinformation. If he can tell untruths, the same holds true for these people. I would read MM's book, but I care to get my facts from fiction. One thing is inherently true. MM is a funnyman, and we all know that what comedians say is not to be taken seriously.

Just remember this, "Guns cause crime, like flies cause garbage!"

#193 - Posted by: on January 30, 2004 05:30 PM

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Visit this! Jean Charest

#194 - Posted by: Mechanic on January 31, 2004 12:10 PM

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1)
"Guns cause crime, like flies cause garbage!"

Listen up incompetant American, what you've stated is a duff analogy. Do you think that the number of shootings or gun related deaths would go down if NO-ONE had a gun? Doh

2)
If America is the greatest country in the world then why do you have to pay for your healthcare? Ha Ha Ha Ha! Hope you dont get run over and die becuase your wallet was stolen while you were waiting for an ambulance!

#195 - Posted by: on January 31, 2004 02:26 PM

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We have to pay for health care because our goverment spends all our money on false wars. And I thought Americas education system was bad. But your's is not good I thinkbad is the word.

#196 - Posted by: on February 2, 2004 10:58 AM

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Unsigned gun nut: Good logic re: “Guns cause crime, like flies cause garbage!” I guess that’s the whole “Guns don’t kill people…” sort of argument. I suppose you’re right, a gun, as an inanimate object, doesn’t really have the capability to shoot someone by itself.

But having a gun around can make things a helluva lot worse. Maybe you missed that point in the segment of “Bowling for…” when MM asked the cop if they were going to arrest the dog for shooting the hunter. Just in case you still don’t get the point – there are enough f*’n idiots in America (and everywhere else in the world) to ruin things for everyone and that’s why mommy needs to take away your toys.

But, from reading your entry I guess you haven’t seen the movie. I suggest, in order to sound remotely intelligent on the subject, you might want to try watching it before you comment on the authenticity of MM’s arguments. Actually, I’d like anyone, including Frank J, to illuminate a single fact that was/is incorrect in the movie. I haven’t heard of a single lawsuit yet…and I’m pretty sure Yanks are just as sue-happy as they are gun-happy.

Uhh, MM’s endorsement deals??…Nike? Coke? Mac D’s?

Assuming you can read (it’s a leap), go to http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/resources.html to get some facts. Oh yeah, MM didn’t “come here”…uhhh he was born in Flint.

#197 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on February 2, 2004 02:00 PM

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That letter was.....beautiful...I'm wiping the tears from my eyes...

#198 - Posted by: Chad Coleman on February 3, 2004 10:51 PM

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Guns don't kill people the bullets do. Duh

#199 - Posted by: on February 4, 2004 11:29 AM

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no,no, no you stupid commes with your no guns thing. i need my guns to do me some shooting. I hate you all go to

#200 - Posted by: on February 6, 2004 10:47 AM

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now lets all just calm down and ATTACK! Kill all of them with are guns! We rule stupid canadians

#201 - Posted by: shut up on February 6, 2004 02:34 PM

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Don't let those dumb canucks get ya down... I've been to THEIR country, which is why I'm still here.. as all monkey hating anti-communist Christians should be.
"Hating M. Moore" is the best piece of literature I've seen since Bill Shakespear shook the ink out of his perodyctal feathers (I know, it wasn't a bird) & spewed forth his guts to make my high school english class miserable. By the way, when you say" Ooh Oh, I'm a monkey" does it sound like Tinky Winky, or is it more like something Homer S. would say. Just trying to get the "feel" of it all.
Yours in liberal crushing,
DT

#202 - Posted by: doubletrouble on February 6, 2004 10:07 PM

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Yes sit in your Nice little home, cleening your gun. Don't come to Canada or England or weel anywhere that the thinking hasn't been done for you.

#203 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course on February 10, 2004 10:48 AM

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Glad to see people are posting on my behalf...I'm flattered. Do me the honour of a quick spell check first. Now go back to cleening yer gun.

#204 - Posted by: I'm a Canuck of course. on February 11, 2004 08:54 AM

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TO DOUBLETROUBLE,

Oh dear god...Was that supposed to be Pterodactyl?? Actually, he pretty much WAS a bird, moreso than not, but he didn't have feathers. Now, Rhamphorhynchus, HE had feathers, as did Archeopteryx. But you knew that, right?

"I've been to THEIR country, which is why I'm still here"

What exactly are you insinuating?? That we wouldn't let you in? That you felt out of place? That you couldn't figure out how fast to drive, or what the temperature was?? Or did you just miss your Mom? Whatever the case, I'm not that upset about it, so don't feel too bad.

By the way, I don't really think that your English class was that miserable, on account of the fact that you weren't paying enough attention to learn any of WILLIAM Shakespeare's works, let alone HOW TO SPELL HIS NAME. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a dumb Canuck, right? Meatball.

#205 - Posted by: Dark Canuck on February 15, 2004 03:40 AM

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AWWWWWW!!!!!!!

#206 - Posted by: Dean on February 24, 2004 09:26 AM

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you're hilarious! Screw michael moore!

#207 - Posted by: OTG on February 24, 2004 05:40 PM

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Now let's see if Spain is going to bomb Afgahnistan or Iraq. Is it in your news, do you even know about it? Fucking ignorant Americans. Now you see what you caused us. Fuck you all.

#208 - Posted by: on March 13, 2004 10:24 AM

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to nameless

I hope you do not think of all americans this way. I myself was beating for protesting the war. I am sorry for all the world for having to face the concequences of our actions.

#209 - Posted by: american on March 16, 2004 01:33 PM

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When the truth is told, those who are guilty strike out at those that expose it. The truth really must hurt all of you spineless, arrogant, inconsiderate republican pieces of shit! Michael Moore is awesome, but you're blinded , somehow, by that corporate, rich, i'm conservative, better than you, bullshit.
Have a shitty day, Bush is going DOWN!!

#210 - Posted by: on March 17, 2004 06:17 PM

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Hey Nameless. Don't you have a sensitivity training seminar to go to? And in response to most of the other comments here:

Arguing on the Internet. Even if you win, you're still a retard.

#211 - Posted by: Mob_Triggerman on March 23, 2004 10:07 PM

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yes you are a retared if you win. You're a bigger retares if yopu read it.

#212 - Posted by: a retard on March 29, 2004 02:18 PM

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wow....ive never seen such a pitiful attempt trying to bash on someones politcal views and yet have no arguments to counter his views...way to go. A+ on incoherent babble and libel. F on actual political logic.

#213 - Posted by: Some Pinko on April 4, 2004 09:35 PM

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this is very interesting to read. All you people getting all upset over something that was a joke in the begining. Just goes to show how really useless all your brains are.
You're all very useless.
But it seems that I am closing in on you.

#214 - Posted by: people are stupid on April 19, 2004 02:35 PM

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Man, you people are dumb.

#215 - Posted by: Big Dog on May 4, 2004 03:40 PM

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Just because Michael Moore does't seem able to have a meaningful relationship with a razor blade, it's no reason to go off and just hate this poor useless excuse for a human being.
I always thought he as a Canadian, aaw, who should go back.

#216 - Posted by: J_Crater on May 6, 2004 12:54 PM

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Im so glad I live in sweden... Jesus christ you americans are fucked up... I wouldnt care if you didnt have so many weapons for your own use.. But every cloud has a silver lining.. Atleast your digging your own hole.. I´m giving your f-u country about 30-40 years of remaining lifespan before it dissolves that is if you dont manage to kill everyone else in the worls before that... AND one thing... All the shit that u guys are into now... YOU OWE IT TO YOUR SELF!!!! I dont care about 9/11 you know why??? Because thats not even a fraction af all the people youve killed over the years... Fat Ignorant Stupid People...Thts you, You have absolutely no idea how the world works... You can all fuck off... Exept some of you that i suppose are nice

#217 - Posted by: Raoul Duke on May 12, 2004 04:33 PM

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Raoul Duke is right, tho abit agressive. Americans started out by killing all the natives (NICE). Just because your gov. tries to get that fact lost the rest of the world will never forget. And not to mention the milions of innocent children that have died due to USA sanctions. Feels good to be american, doesnt it?

#218 - Posted by: Jimmy on May 12, 2004 04:38 PM

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now that's an interesting point! where are we supposed to draw a line? europeans came to america and soon began to kill the natives, so up to when shall we call them europeans, and when americans?

#219 - Posted by: on May 13, 2004 04:14 AM

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I'm just too incensed to make a strong comment about the idiot Michael Moore. All he can do is present what he considers to be facts but no one produces challenges. Perhaps just ignoring the SOB will make him go away. Of course his bulbous appearance is so inspiring perhaps he'll make children eat more fatty diets to look like him!

#220 - Posted by: Russ on May 17, 2004 11:24 AM

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I have an excellent solution to solving both the acid mouth and balloon figure: Staple shut both orfices. He'll shut up and slim down all in one fell swoop

#221 - Posted by: Russ on May 17, 2004 02:39 PM

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A good indication that your arguement is baseless or weak is if you are beligerent when you are expressing it. If you call people names and use vulgarity in the place of logic and common sense, based on this website, chances are you are a Bush supporter or totally uninformed. This webpage is a gleaming example of my point. Just look. You guys are shooting yourselves in the foot. Down with Bush.

#222 - Posted by: on May 26, 2004 05:01 AM

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A good indication that your arguement is baseless or weak is if you are beligerent when you are expressing it. If you call people names and use vulgarity in the place of logic and common sense, based on this website, chances are you are a Bush supporter or totally uninformed. This webpage is a gleaming example of my point. Just look. You guys are shooting yourselves in the foot. Down with Bush.

#223 - Posted by: on May 26, 2004 05:01 AM

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Buy www.i-directv.net this it is a wonderful addition to anyones home entertainment system.

#224 - Posted by: directv on May 28, 2004 12:22 AM

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I think that this site is a load of bull most of the posts that people have written are not even spelled right. And the guy who hates Michael Moore doesn't even make any damn sense.

#225 - Posted by: Tessa on June 14, 2004 04:17 PM

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Hello Frank J.

Funny? No, just juvenile and silly. A 12 year-old could write better than you. Michael Moore is one hundred times a better person than you could ever be. I had a look at your article hoping that it might actually contain some constructive critisism couched in some good "satire"(erm, do you even understand what the word means?!) No, instead, your so-called article slags the bloke off for things like choosing to have a beard and the fact that he's a bit over-weight. On the whole you sound like a horrible person with the intelligence of a pea. As for being funny... no, it's just sad to think that you think you're evoking humour; what you evoked in me was a sense of pity. Also I cringed at the idea that you obviously think that you have something valid to say. Scary to think that people out there would like your site....!

#226 - Posted by: Grace on June 16, 2004 09:30 AM

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Do the people that wrote the letters on this website actually exist? It must be a joke, really! Go back to school, or get a divorce from your sister buddy, the world needs people like Michael Moore even if you don't completely agree with what he is saying. He does however make people stop and think for a change, unlike complete morons like yourself whom gather popularity by appealing to other moron's base instincts. Kind of like what the bush administration does. Bush has no balls, no friends and does not deserve to run a fruit shop let alone a country. Grow a brain you fools. Myles

#227 - Posted by: intelligent liberal on June 17, 2004 03:21 PM

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Do the people that wrote the letters on this website actually exist? It must be a joke, really! Go back to school, or get a divorce from your sister buddy, the world needs people like Michael Moore even if you don't completely agree with what he is saying. He does however make people stop and think for a change, unlike complete morons like yourself whom gather popularity by appealing to other moron's base instincts. Kind of like what the bush administration does. Bush has no balls, no friends and does not deserve to run a fruit shop let alone a country. Grow a brain you fools. Myles

#228 - Posted by: intelligent liberal on June 17, 2004 03:45 PM

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all I can say to a red neck like you is that you fit exactly in the cathegory of the perfect stupid white trash man tha's why miky writes about you and is so succesfull on describing your kind.LOL
you know what you need asshole?? education!! stop lerning your manners and education from the tv series married with children and star trek LOL
there's more than that youre a retarded ignorant
michael moore's intellect is far beyong your capabilities of understanding you are a little mentally ill kid trying to confront a really human down to earth good nature person LOL that is also very smart HAS lotta balls .hope you get it redneck.

#229 - Posted by: Drako on June 21, 2004 01:05 AM

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all I can say to a red neck like you is that you fit exactly in the cathegory of the perfect stupid white trash man tha's why miky writes about you and is so succesfull on describing your kind.LOL
you know what you need asshole?? education!! stop lerning your manners and education from the tv series married with children and star trek LOL
there's more than that youre a retarded ignorant
michael moore's intellect is far beyong your capabilities of understanding you are a little mentally ill kid trying to confront a really human down to earth good nature person LOL that is also very smart HAS lotta balls .hope you get it redneck.

#230 - Posted by: Drako on June 21, 2004 02:02 AM

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IS VERY FUNNY TO SEE HOW PEOPLE FROM OTHER COUNTRY LOOK AT AMERICANS LIKE THE UNEDUCATED
MORE STUPID KIND OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD THE SAD PART IS... IT IS NOTHING BUT A REALLITY
HERE IN AMERICA YOU DON'T SEE REAL NEWS YOU DON'T LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD AND WHEN SOMEONE LIKE MICHAEL MOORE SAYS IT ALL STRAIGHT UP IN YOUR FACE EVEN THE STUPID NEWS PEOPLE REACT IN A BAD WAY THEY ARE TO ME LIKE ZOMBIES LIVING IN AN ANREAL WORLD ! WE ALL KNOW THAT SEP/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB THINK ASSHOLES IT WAS VERY CONVINIENT TO PROVOQUE THIS WHOLE MESS SO THIS ASSHOLE BUSH AND BOYS CAN TAKE OVER THE LIBERTY OF YOU IDIOTS AND THE WORLD WAKE UP MORONS! YOU ARE NOT THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED YOU ARE A BUNCH OF DUMMIES GET IT?

#231 - Posted by: DRAKO on June 21, 2004 02:18 AM

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You know I always doubted the theory of evolution...but seeing the last few comments made by some people may very well prove it.

And if you think MM was a huge, pulsating mass of flesh, bone & incoherant irrational thought, may I point out Harry Knowles of Ain't It Cool News?

#232 - Posted by: K. Taylor on June 24, 2004 10:18 PM

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The owner of this blog is my hero. I'm so sick of liberal media bashing Bush for his decisions in the face of catastophe. And yes, Michael Moore is a fool, lying just to push his already-decided-without-looking-at-the-evidence viewpoints. Oh yes, and this blog is humorous, especially using his ass as a screen, lol.

#233 - Posted by: Stephanie on June 24, 2004 10:38 PM

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I LOVE YOU FRANK YOU HAVE GREAT VIEW POINTS AND DAMN THAT GUY IS REALLY FAT AND UGLY AND A HIPPO! IF THERE IS EVER A PROTEST ON HATING THIS DONKEY PLEASE LET ME KNOW! I WISH HE HAD DIED IN THE PLANES...WAIT NO THAT WOULD BE WRONG GOD WOULD HATE ME. I WISH WE COULD HANG HIM UPSIDE DOWN AND BEAT HIM WITH A WET NOODLE! CONTACT ME SOON!

#234 - Posted by: KATE on June 25, 2004 11:19 AM

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You know, i started to read this website, and although high on legal and illicit drugs, found it self-serving. Wanting to condemn you outright by being from the Flint area (i have been T_H_E_R_E) you struck a chord with me ..but Michael Moore is doing a little to stir up some shit that needed to happen. He can be obnoxious and a bit of an egomaniac but it can be necessary in many situations (look at this website). In no way is he pseudo intellectual or a rich kid shooting the breeze. In my opinion he followed the right path
and you would'nt have a website wtihtout him . You probably grew up on marmalade and was guaranteed mommy would pay for every field trip. You are just pissed you didn't think of the idea first, to slam Bush and the other hands that feed you.

LOVE

CR

#235 - Posted by: C ROB on June 26, 2004 02:35 AM

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I have a couple of word to say about Mr. Moore. Plain and simple. Move away from our country. We do not want you here and apparently you do not want to be here. So please move away. You might belong in a jungle somewhere or anywhere without food or water so your fat ass can fade away. You, Mr. Moore are a disgrace to all liveing things. You belong in hell.

#236 - Posted by: Jay Hudson on June 29, 2004 04:54 AM

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its hard to respond to such an immature, senseless rant but i'll give it a try. If i'm a leftist, liberal commie, then that must make you a fascist, totalitarian, redneck, southern disease to society. Since michael moore (aka the man) wouldn't waste his time reading your pitiful
asinine, and entirely mindless concoction of words slopped together, I will give it a rebuttal. It would have been at least partially understandable if you had argued about the things that really matter, instead of just poking fun at his human flaws. It i only had a picture and a short description of your pathetic ass i could come up with a few pages of insults based on your
physical appearance or the fact that you fuck your sister in the ass. But no, i will stick to the issues that really matter. If it werent for genius’s like MM, your filthy ass would be stuck
making 3.50 a day at a sweat shop in kentucky. He and all the other liberal soldiers paved the
way so that drunk ass rednecks like you could make a decent life for you and you 17 brothers and sisters. I also want to dispell the myth that all liberal, left- wing socialists like myself are unpatriotic pussies. I will fucking kill you bitch if you get in the way of my country or my ideas. i feel so passionate about my ideas that I would gladly take a seat in the plane that crashed into my country’s world trade center if it would eradicate all the ignorant, selfish, conservative, bible slaves like you.

#237 - Posted by: dan k on June 29, 2004 10:05 PM

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Wow. I cannot believe that load of hypocrism above. It's unbelievable. You are giving yourself a heart attack ridiculing people who have different view points than you. MM is NOT a soldier. And no, you're not sticking to the issues, you went on and on name calling and stereotyping to the extreme. So no, you are the immature and senseless one. You're not patriotic, your sick in the head.

#238 - Posted by: Beth L on July 12, 2004 12:19 AM

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My condolences on your Ridiculous And Incoherent Troll infestation, Frank - at least, you seem to have attracted only the least competent, most impotent and most utterly witless ones - you know, the ones that either die off quickly from self-inflicted wounds or end up being put down by some quick and merciful means like the rabid, brainless scum they are.

Nice piece on Mickey Moore-On, The Brain-Dead Golem Of Cinematography, by the way.

#239 - Posted by: JB on July 14, 2004 07:16 PM

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mike moore is a f**cking Fat Communist

#240 - Posted by: dano ossining new york on July 19, 2004 09:07 PM

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Wow. I have to say, that was extremely funny, Frank J! Keep up the good work! :) With all the crazy Bush-bashing going on all the time, it does my heart good to see that I'm not the only one who thinks otherwise!

#241 - Posted by: on July 20, 2004 02:54 AM

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http://www.ebaumsworld.com/michaelmoore.html - for all my fellow michael moore haters, please go here if you haven't already! it will brighten your day.

#242 - Posted by: down with commies on July 20, 2004 03:02 AM

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Hey Dan K...the best part about this wonderful country, is that in the spirit of the founders, we don't NEED anyone but ourselves. Michael Moore has done nothing for me, and I certainly don't need him to guarantee my wage or my livelihood. That towers reference has crushed any sane arguement you might have strapped together. I have served this country proudly and well, and I respect people of opinions other than myself. I draw the line, however at a man who preaches agains our country in a foreign place. That man is no longer trying to make his country better, but stepping on the pedestal of the world's jealous so that he can increase his own distorted self image as a robin hood of the modern age. You buy that line, apperently. You are an ass, of the worst order. The kind that views his own short sighted visceral opinions as immutable truth. Good luck should you ever fall back to Earth.

#243 - Posted by: JC on July 21, 2004 01:38 AM

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Finally a website that reveals the truth about the self serving fat pig michael moore. He is what wrong with this country along with his hollywood assholes. He should move to another country since he thinks so little of our leaders. Get over the 2000 election you shithead. Can anyone imagine Al freaking gore running this country, give me a break.

#244 - Posted by: billy p on July 21, 2004 10:27 PM

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...When i started to read this article...I laughed. Then i laughed some more. And then i was rolling on the floor. But then i read some more and more and started to really get into the debates involving Q. and all those who apposed him (lol). I myself and a conservative, Bush supporter, Michael Moore disliker (notice i said disliker). But while reading these articles, i actually started to question SOME of the ideals that i was so firmly based behind. I took in point both sides of the argument and was enlightend in many ways (thank u Q and Beatnik). And at the end of the debates i realized. I dont even care WHY the United States (dont say America...South America doesnt like that lol) is involved in the war. And i dont believe anyone at this point should debate whys and why nots. The fact is...the United States IS at war and that the country is far too involved to BACK OUT. So why debate the whys. All i care about is the men and women in OUR armed forces who are fighting the war, the men and women who risk and give their lives with no second thought.

My brother is a LCpl in the United States Marines (Oo-Rah) fighting in Iraq. Just the other day my family and i recieved a phone call that his buddy was killd in a car bombing while on a patrol. What was strange was that i immediatly felt anger twordes those who support the anti-war. I was angry because those people are basically sending a message to my brother and the family of his friend and to all the men and women involved in the war.

That they are fighting and dieing for a pointless and lost cause. That they are dying for something that most of the world does not believe in at all. How would you feel if you died while fighting for someone and they were actually against you fighting for them.

So what i am proposing...is that people forget the whys and whynots and support our troops by supporting what they believe in.

PS. To all the non intellegetable monkeys...honestly...grow up lol

#245 - Posted by: Eddie Z on July 30, 2004 05:06 AM

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Where can I even begin. I will make this pithy, as Bill O'reily puts it. If MM was being truthful and stating fact and not fiction, I would be the first to go get my passport or maybe lower myself even further and become one of those crazy protestors.
The problem is, he is not. He is distorting the facts or making things up as he goes.
Which ever it is he is laughing all the way to the bank. Putting down the rich while he rides around in a limo..HA. I don't get it.

I loved the hate letter to Moore. I took it for what it was...funny. Everyone getting on their intellectual high horse. Intellect is overrated..common sense in no longer a factor obviously.
Anyone see Moore on HBO? Wow, if that didn't show how he EXTENDS the truth then I don't know what will.

#246 - Posted by: FeL on July 31, 2004 11:49 PM

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Aah, finally someone I can talk to again! :) What a relief!
So there's just one point I like to comment, Eddie Z. Don't you think the best way of suppurting the troops would be to bring them home? I mean Iraq is as unstable as a house of cards, and the problem is changing the minds of the guerilla fighters. You're right, they fight for a lost cause, but they believe in what they're doing, and that's quite dangerous. Besides brainwashing almost every Iraqi out there, I can't think of any way achieving to change their minds. Besides, when Italy and others withdrew their troops, it felt like a victory for those terrorists, which also complicates the situation. So since the US just can't easily withdraw their troops and leave the whole country on its own, what should be done then to bring peace and stability to this region? Honestly, I don't know, and only time will tell if there is a way. But I do think that this war was absolutely unnecessary, and many hundreds of people would still live today, if they didn't had to die for obscure and doubtful reasons. And to me it's a fact that the US government is totally incapable of finding the best way to bring peace to Iraq, since all they done by now is bring war.

#247 - Posted by: Q on August 2, 2004 01:47 PM

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I just read your hate mail and i loved it. And then i read some of the posts and a few of them are from opposed "open minded" people who think differently than you do but feel the need to call you an idiot for not thinking like they do. Well all you open minded bastards can go shove it. You all think people who aren't intelectual assholes aren't opened minded because we have a different political opinion than yours. We never feel the need to push our opinions on you guys, but somehow, everytime you can't agree with us, you call us closed minded. Yeah maybe bush ain't doing so much of a swell job, but blaming it on him and america like Michael Moore is with his biased fabricated bull shit doesn't make anything better now does it. There really should be limits to freedom. As for Frank J. You rock my world. thanks

#248 - Posted by: john paul (yeah thats right, i'm catholic) on August 4, 2004 10:44 AM

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Dude, Frank, what can I say? You hit the fat, ugly, nail on the head. Man, too bad you posted before Fahrenheit came out...

PS: We gotta have a beer sometime.

#249 - Posted by: fireballmonkey on August 14, 2004 12:55 AM

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By the way, to "Micheal Moore" who posted on November 4, 2003, obviously you're the moron, since you can't even spell your own name!

#250 - Posted by: fireballmonkey on August 14, 2004 01:01 AM

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Hi Folks,
Check out the free Michael Moore Urinal Targets at www.mooretarget.com These are high quality clear urine resistent lexan sheets. Then they are silk-screened with acetate based ink. Raised bug eye's are added for that 3-D effect. They come with colorful mounting sucker cups and are great for lovers or haters of Moore.

#251 - Posted by: Lou Causley on August 20, 2004 09:15 PM

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Hello, everyone!
This morning I watched Michael Moore’s F9/11. During the 2000 USA elections, to my present shame, I was a Bush supporter. It seemed at that time the better alternative for my country (I live in Romania, somewhere “over the rainbow”, in Central Europe). After constantly watching Euronews, CNN, several newspapers, and, most important, thinking for myself, I reached the conclusion that I had been a fool! But this is not important right now... After viewing the film (it probably isn’t quite a Discovery documentary) I decided to see “the other side”, and so I stumbled on your website. At first I really was disappointed, and also scarred: is really America full of ignorant haters? Does reason have no meaning to the yanks? I almost felt sorry for you and thought you deserved Bush! As always, the reasonable canadians are a nice touch, but where are the reasonable americans?
So, let me tell you what a nobody from the old world thinks:
1. any posts that contain name-calling are valueless form an informational point of view... maybe, as a survey, they could provide information to the number of “troubled” individuals your country has...
2. the debate on MM’s truthful vision of events could never come to an end, as some things are hard / impossible to prove or disprove. Well, this is the real world!
So, you have to choose what you believe, what makes sense to you. From my media coverage of your president and my personal reflection, the vision depicted in F9/11 is highly probable. MM is not a god and he is sure to have made tons of mistakes, but the fact that no lawsuit was launched against him shows at least that nobody can prove him wrong! I must underline that this does not imply his being right...
Every empire has tried to impose its will on the rest of the world, and so is America. The US are, for now, the most powerful state in the world (not for long, I hope). It is a natural principle to do all you have the power to, and I am honestly ok with that... What I am against is for the US to try to convince everyone that what they are doing is the right thing! I don’t know how many of you can admit, but you are getting weaker, or everyone else is getting stronger, but anyway, there’s no way you can take on the world!
If there is something I would thank Bush for, it would be his making Europe more united than ever! Some of the governments (mine, too) were bought over, but the people of Europe, in their majority, were against any war. What we really need to unite is an enemy, and you might just fill out that position.
Saddam was, probably, a bad mother f***er, although, who can be sure; the only info on him is what “the free world” wanted us to hear! There would have been a lot of better ways to stop him... But the most important idea should have been the will of the iraqis... Nobody asked them if they wanted to be “liberated”! This is a nice example of a “good by force” policy! Good intentions can, in the end, be excused... I do not believe this is the case here.... too many coincidences, too many people on your presidents staff stand to gain from the war, too many times have you side-stepped your own great constitution...
As to the approach suggested a few messages back, that the past is gone and you have to support your troops, I consider it immature, to say the least. In the first place, your soldiers are mercenaries, so I have no pity for them... They fight for money and they know the risks! This is nothing like any other war, nobody is forced to go there! America has had the luck to have never fought a war on its soil... Europe has, and will never want to repeat the experience. War was never the way, and most of all not now! Nobody in their right mind would ever accept 9/11, but it happened, and it was to be expected! If you keep an open mind and get past the so called patriotism, you might begin to understand that terrorism is not a plague, as you would like to believe! Why wasn’t Europe attacked first? Terrorism is a direct effect of your foreign policy! People shall fight you the only way they can! As long as you support a belligerent president, you are no longer civilians, you are targets! This can never be an excuse for any kind of crime, but what about the cynically called collateral damage? Those people will never forgive you, and, as they have nobody to hate, they hate you all.
I doubt things are going to get any better! You have a chance to change that, and I hope you take it! This is a war you can not win, as long as the other side is ready to die just to hurt you! It is probably just a matter of time, but somebody will detonate a nuclear bomb. It is a very sick thing to say, but I hope they do it to you and not to us! You have the right to defend yourselves, to terminate the “animals” (only as a last resort), but you should stop and think for a moment who the real animal is? Who the real terrorist is? You will never live through an american city being bombed, but you are not safe...
The entire world was with you on 9/11... You could have changed a lot for the better! Yet, you managed to lose every friend you gained on that sad day! You will have to get used to being alone, because that is where you are heading... and you are not getting any stronger!
So, just a message form one of the 80% of reasonable europeans that opposed your terror methods and your administration’s “truth”: WAKE UP, AMERICA!

#252 - Posted by: just your average european on August 22, 2004 12:13 PM

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First of all i'm not going to pull the "lets see who can use bigger words hokey-pokey." MM is a Retard, Anyone with Any Patriotic Sense would not only embrace the freedom their Given, they would also Drink a big tall Glass of shut the **** up. This war is justified in Every sense Necessary. So its a War for oil? Oh really because i havent seen my gas prices go down. I'm sick of these Raving for'ners(to quote Funny Guy) Whining about how america is trying to control the world. Well if you dont like it thats too bad. I hope your country is the next we invade... i hope you slip up and make some terrorist gesture... I'll join the military just to kick your ass. You have this hot shot idea of how your country lives peacfully with every other country, Thats because your backwoods country isnt on the fighting line all the damn time. Take that idiot from sweden since when has sweden taken any political action? As i recall NEVER. Look at all the countries involved, The middle East, Brittain, USA(who funds NATO, your prized council), Countries like these are always at odds. I'm not gonna lie you guys have it pretty easy, I'll bet money 90% of you forners Have Never been robbed. Lets take a look at the Facts, WMD do they exist or not? I'd say in all probability not, How do we justify war then you ask. Simple. Bomb my shit and we'll blow your planet up. I have no sympathy for Them or ppl like you. In the 1940s NO one was against the US when we came in and saved you. No one was against Truman when he set off the atom bomb. I'll tell you this, I might even give you some credit here so listen up, no wait change that... why dont you all drink a tall glass of shut the **** up, Stick to your own political affairs and... Maybe just maybe oneday when you get your country bombed we'll back you up... I hope you enjoy life on the wrong side of the planet. Oh and remember God hates you and all that you spawn.

#253 - Posted by: The Pirate King on August 27, 2004 02:13 AM

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Dear Pirate King,
Actually, you are right on something: they bomb you, you bomb them, and I really couldn’t care less if you wiped each other off the face of the Earth. What I can’t stand is America’s trying to drag us into a war that we haven’t started, have always opposed and really can’t win. You’ve opened Pandora’s Box in Iraq; it’s your problem now! As long as your mercenaries die there, I have no problem with that. But when I see civilians getting it and being called “collateral damage”, the same type of bystanders that you called heroes for taking a dive with the Twins, just because some are arabs and some are americans, don’t expect any support form yours truly. When I see your drunk-drug-problem-daddy’s-son-dumb-ass president ignoring his own people and going to war, having the support of only a few blood-thirsty psychos, with the IQ’s and common sense of enraged monkeys, I start to think that something is wrong in America.
As for your fine historical analysis, you came and saved us, but you saved yourselves, as well. What would have happened to you on your far-away continent, isolated and without your good european allies to suck / steal from? You would have probably continued tormenting black people (no offence, I really don’t know how it is “politically correct” to call our African-american brothers). Could your market alone support your economy, genius? But I hope you didn’t help us for that, as I believe no sane man could stand by and witness the horrors of lawless-Nazis. But yet, you needed Pearl Harbor to enter the war, you had to do it because you had been attacked and not because it was the right thing to do. As for lawless-Nazis, how about what’s happening at Guantanamo? As for Hiroshima, I honestly considered you did what you had to: far too many soldiers would have died ... But Hiroshima should have been enough, so I consider Nagasaki to be the first true terrorist attack!
What you fail to realize is that some day (soon, I hope) you will no longer be the top-dog! It is not a threat as we have seen, in our history, enough wars to last as an eternity, and we became as peaceful as one can be. But I don’t know about the rest of the world...
PS: what really infuriates me is that you take a noble cause and make it lose its meaning and value for your own sake. Why always pick on the little guy? What great victory was there in Afghanistan? Or in Iraq? Any of these victories would have made Cesar or Alexander really proud! Why don’t you try on North Korea? Is it maybe because, unlike Sadam, they truly have WMD and could bomb you back to the stone age? Are these the real problems of the world? Why don’t you start helping the backward african nations? The moment you start doing something good just for the sake of it, I will be behind you all the way.

#254 - Posted by: just your average european on August 29, 2004 04:15 AM

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The day that intentionally misleading information becomes accepted as factual, researched and educated material, is the day we loose the most critical piece to a stable society; communication.

The results are major setback or implosion!

Have we crossed that line???...
Can you and yours deal with the result?

#255 - Posted by: on August 30, 2004 04:14 PM

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too funny.. and to think, I was originally looking for Jennifer Eccleston.

#256 - Posted by: V on September 2, 2004 12:31 AM

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Hey, romanian dude - drop dead. Keep watching CNN International and Euronews and don't be surprised if you suddenly have a clear view of your pancreas, what with your head lodged so far up your ass.

Selectively forgetting things like, oh, I don't know, the FIVE BILLION DOLLARS GWB is spending to fight AIDS in Africa.

Or how about things like JAPAN NOT SURRENDERING AFTER HIROSHIMA.

What great victory was there in Iraq and Afghanistan? Gee willikers, might have been the toppling of the tyrannical regimes of the Taliban and the Baathists? FYI, these people made Ceausescu look like Mother Tereas and Gandhi put together.

I don't know what they put in the water over there in Romania, but it must be a potent hallucinogen, seeing that you seem to appraise North Korea's possible nuclear arsenal as being capable of nuking the USA back into the stone age.

Newsflash, tard boy, the reason no one is directly attacking North Korea is because doing that would result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of South Koreans and Japanese, if not millions. Even if they had ICBMs, which they don't, they would not get further than India without falling apart. But Seoul and Tokyo are well within reach of conventional missiles tipped with nuke warheads.

And frankly I'm appalled how another survivor of Eastern European communism can be so ignorant of what stopped it - the United States of America and her sons and daughters who fought in Korea and Vietnam and other places.

And yes, they did this to protect the security of their own nation. So what? Who are you to demand that they topple dictators if and only if the dictator is not a direct threat to their country? Who the hell are you to demand that America should protect everyone from the goodness of their hearts?

Quit being such a whiny little shit and start a political movement to turn Romania into an altruistic world police. Why don't you build a free, wealthy society, then spend some of that wealth to build a strong military, and then go kick Kim Jong Il's ass. Fucking ingrate.

Sam
(another european, definitely not 'average', if that means suffering from chronic rectocranial inversion...which it actually does. i can't wait to get the hell off this craphole continent)

#257 - Posted by: Sam on September 2, 2004 06:59 AM

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To Sam:
" can't wait to get the hell off this craphole continent" -> the sooner, the better... It will probably be less of a craphole if you do move!

#258 - Posted by: on September 3, 2004 02:04 AM

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MM is still fat and ugly !!!

#259 - Posted by: Alan Wilson on September 3, 2004 11:27 AM

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WOW...havnt been on here in a while...but im back b/c i have my internet back up WOOT. Ok...a few points to address...Q...i hate u...but i like u. I am feeling really confused right now lol.

First off, i dont think that the best way to support our troops is to bring them home...let me illustrate. Think if you were a all star football player on an allstar team...and while in the middle of the game (while winning by 87 points) Everyone in the home stands boos and shouts to get off the field. The coach then says "Great job guys, you are really doing great...Now GET OFF the field and let the other team win."

Now i know comparing a football game to WAR is not nessasarily an excellent example...but it gets my point across. Maybe you and other anti war people might think that Our boys dont like being over there, but to them it is their job, and one that they are damn proud of. OO-RAH!!!

Secondly...did u hear the presidents speech in the rebuplican convention....HE SO ROCKS. "NOT ON MY WATCH" lol what he says he means GO MR. PRES.

Thirdly, (be prepared for an out of character outburst) Average European....If i ever heard anyone say that my brother and everyone who fights in the US military is a mercenary...i would honestly cut your fucking throat out with my fingers and put a couple through the front of your skull. (sigh)....now that that is out of the way. MERCENARIES!!! are you kidding me...so what...is every soldier in every military a mercenary b/c they get paid to do it...um let me think...NO!!! Let's define a mercenary....someone who will fight for the side that pays the most money...hmmmm...how many US military personel have defected or changed sides b/c of a better money offer...dont have an exact number but im sure that the number is somewhere between slim to none. And by the way, my brother and alot of the forces over there were in the military before all this shit started to happen dumbass. They didnt just up and say...WOW, im bored, i think i'll go join the military so i can go fight and kill stuff. Next...Um...i think b/c i read your little article...and the part of needing to rethink who the terrorists are...that i have changed my entire thought on the US...i guess i was wrong all this time...gosh silly me... all this time i thought the people who would senslessly explode themselves in a room full of people, who wouldnt give a second thought about if ALL the none muslims were wiped from the face of the earth, who would kill people in their own countries for sport or b/c they looked at them the wrong way were the terrorists...oh my gosh i guess i was completly wrong...i guess the only terrorists in this world is one of the few countries willing to fight this PLAUGE...gee was i wrong.

And yes...they are a plauge. And they couldnt care less about what your frekin foriegn policies are...as long as they kill the most people at the same time to get thier point across...wich reminds me of a really wierd thing...Terrorist explosions in Spain...wait that cant happen...Spain is in Europe...Europe is terrorist free thanks to its foriegn policies of peace and happiness. Must have been a fluke.

And as for being a target...might as well paint a big bulls eye on my forhead b/c im with bush all the way, but you better watch out...b/c that bulls eye's packin bout 157g of diplomacy behind it...

sigh...i didnt want to argue...AHHHH see what you made me do. Ok...back to you Q. Yes i do agree that there could have been better ways to the situation in Iraq. But, doesnt help arguing now does it. So...i hope me and you can be friends..lol b/c i honestly am not a hater of people different from me. (exept Iraqies...the whole people are shooting at your bro kind of does that to ya) but...if anyone wants to chat using yahoo messenger me name is Demosthenes_es

PEACE!!...(with force lol)

#260 - Posted by: Eddie Z on September 6, 2004 12:56 AM

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Another [your-o-peean]
Sorry, vary bad at these things speaking with ppl from other countries, i see your point and history has proven that warring countries tend to die out quickly, but lets not forget the oh so important greek empire which lasted a mere few centuries. They were somewhat bloodthirsty and their only failure was shift of leadership. Americans are helping do you know that Billions of dollars each year are sent to poor underprivledged nations for food and supplies? I guess not, See even tho we do this, it is not in my opinion "Sane" There's a cycle the earth goes through, when recources are depleated the animals and plants die off until the resources are replenished and can once again sustain life, this is in my opinion "sane." As we all know, yes war drives out bloodthirsty ppl, am i one of them, i'd say yes. I think the world Thrives off of war, i think we are more economically sound due to war, Plus, i like killing things. As for me having the IQ of an enraged monkey well that could be true as well. Now not as to bash the whole of your argument, i do understand that not all Europeans are fucktards, its nice to see infact that you recognize the events that have transpired in the past, but i dont understand why this recent war baffles so many, its a simple matter of "We've had problems with him in that past" some ppl call it brutal, i call it a genius act of strategy. I bet you didnt know that iran will be nuclear armed within a month? They hate us, and well i have a feeling that if anyone blows anyone up it will be them

#261 - Posted by: The Pirate King on September 8, 2004 10:43 PM

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Simply outstanding! I just heard that many people are starving in the middle east and that the U.S. government has approved and put into action a humanitarian hunger relief plan. Michael Moore will be sent to save his Muslim friends by providing food for them. Gee, I wonder how many strips of bacon could be peeled off his back? I don't know but I'd bet there is enough bacon there to sustain life in Iraq for atleast a couple weeks. The good thing here is that Michael Moore would be eaten alive by many towel heads and we would be rid of him. The bad thing is, well, you know how the old saying goes,"you are what you eat" Perhaps his liberal gene cells located in his fat would infiltrate the bodies of those eating him and the U.S. would be faced with a mass liberal immigration rush and they'd all register to vote and Kerry would actually win.

#262 - Posted by: Adam on September 13, 2004 03:02 AM

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Bush end of questions. And if i had it my way Nuclear war all around.

#263 - Posted by: The Pirate King on September 15, 2004 03:19 AM

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whoa! you fascists are really something!

#264 - Posted by: oscar on September 19, 2004 02:51 AM

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Oh damn it. This really pisses me off. Ok, seriously, I accept nearly every form of opinion, and if most of you here think Bush is big daddy and the war was all-righty and all that stuff, go ahead, I accept it. My opinion is different and I can hardly understand yours, but I accept it. But what I simply cannot accept is what Mr. Pirate King shows here: pure stupidity and idiocy. No wait, that’s not correct. You can’t blame someone for that, since he can’t do anything about it. Better: ignorance. Pure ignorance. This is something I can’t stand. Ok, let’s make it clear.
“Bomb my shit and we'll blow your planet up.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but this sounds so much like you think that Iraq has actually anything to do with 9/11, or ever done harm against the US, except from defending itself against American soldiers. Please, please, please show me any slightest trace of a proof that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. Please do, and I will gladly drink a glass of shut the **** up, as to quote you. For me, there is no connection at all between Iraq and Al Quaeda. But please show me, since I and the rest of the world would really like to see it.
You wonder why this war baffles so many? Maybe since most of the world’s citizens don’t see one single good reason for such a brutality? It is so. Nearly every reason stated by the Bush administration was disproved now, and the reasons were heavily doubted before the war started. So don’t you have the slightest doubt about this? Don’t you feel any strange about Bush having said “We started war because of this and that reasons”, and afterwards hearing that almost none of these reasons were proved and true? Don’t you begin to think when you hear Bush saying “Saddam tried to kill my Daddy”, and then sending thousands of soldiers down there? Don’t you ever have the shadow of a doubt that this war could have been started for really low reasons? Honestly, I can’t imagine that you CANNOT think of this, but obviously you really don’t. This is really hard for me to accept.
Another thing to prove your ignorance: “Take that idiot from sweden since when has sweden taken any political action? As i recall NEVER.” Perfect example. You equal political action as to military action. I have nothing to say about that. Just that I now see how you can equal Liberals as to Communists. Same thing.
And for me, any comparisons between this war and WWII are useless. This was completely different. It was a completely different type of aggression there. Really, I’m tired of this, and I don’t want to explain that in all its detail. As for me, you can’t compare these wars. Just shortly, I am not anti-war. I think there are situations were war is necessary, as for WWII. But I don’t think at all that it was necessary in Iraq. And I agree on you, Pirate King, that starting a war against North Korea would be as dumb to start, though the danger potential of this country is far higher than of Iraq.
Let’s get to Eddie Z. Well, I take this as a compliment :) About bringing home the troops: ok, you can blame me for that, I’ve written this not the way I meant it. My fault. I don’t say the troops should be brought home, since this would leave Iraq behind, probably being the reason to really let hell break lose and start a civil war. US soldiers do their best to keep everything under control, but I think there is just no way to do this efficiently. My theory: if the troops would be redrawn, the fundamentalists would take over Iraq in no time. If the troops stay, the guerrilla fighters will continue to fight them, at least for a very long time. You see the dilemma. No good way to go. What I meant with my question was that it would be the best for the soldiers to come home, since they get simply killed one by one in Iraq, but they just can’t be taken home until Iraq is stable, and God knows when this will be. So I agree on your comparison, though I’m not quite comfortable with comparing a sports game and a war, for obvious reasons.
I also agree on calling the soldiers mercenaries being stupid. That just isn’t true. I think most of them are actually believing in what they are doing, fighting for a good cause. But I also think that they are horrendously misinformed about what they are doing, by propaganda and the media, just like most of the American citizens. Most of them still think Saddam was responsible for 9/11, and he had WMD, and he was planning to attack the US, and all that stupid crap.
Another thing: in my eyes the problem about Bush is that he actually thinks that terrorism can be treated and solved like a problem with a hostile country. Annihilate the government, the dictator or whatever is on the top of the country, and the problem is solved. Works fine with countries, but I have never actually heard of a country called Federal Republic of Terrorism. I know what you think: removing governments of terrorist-supporting countries helps taking away the support for terrorists. True. But you can’t kill terrorists. You can’t kill all Al Quaeda members. It’s like when Israelis kill Palestinians: the friends and family members of the killed Palestinian become very, very fucked up and start shooting the Israelis, then the Isrealis fight back and so on. Just to make it clear, I don’t call Israelis or Palestinians terrorists. Other topic, let’s leave this out. The thing is: it might be a noble cause to remove Saddam and cut off the support to terrorist forces, but I think this causes more damage than benefits. As you can see now in Iraq. Most Iraqis hate the Americans, and they do fight them. I can hardly imagine that Iraq will ever become a country supporting the West, the US in specific. I think it’s more likely that it will become an anti-US country. Again, my theory. But enough for now. I’m looking forward to more discussions. It’s so boring in Europe now, and this site raises my blood pressure *lol*

#265 - Posted by: ! on September 19, 2004 08:45 AM

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I agree with Exclamation Mark (EM) in that comparisons between WWII and the current war on terrorism (WWIV) may not be especially useful. We never tried or even felt the need to prove a link between Hitler and Pearl Harbor for example. We just took the man at his word in those days after the bombing and returned the favor of his foolishly declaring war against the US at a time when America had a felt need to kick some bad guys hard in the yarbles. Beyond that comparison, perhaps there may not be much more to say.

But leaving aside WWII, the links between Saddam and al Qaeda (AQ), before and after 9/11, are not disputed by anyone with even a modest desire to be informed on the subject. The contacts between Osama bin Laden (OBL) and Saddam predate even the First Gulf War and are well-documented as continuing through mid-March 2003. Granted, a full understanding requires a plunge into an alphabet soup of foreign-sounding names and loose organizations, but it's not responsible to simply throw up one's hands and say that those who've gone through the difficult exercise of learning are the ignorant parties.

The earliest known Iraq-AQ contact was in Jordan in 1990, arranged by Sudanese national Hassan al-Turabi (Ha-T), a leader in the AQ-affiliate National Islamic Front (NIF). During these early contacts, OBL sent AQ emmisaries to meet with Iraqi officials sent by Saddam to establish a non-aggression pact between the Islamic AQ and the secular Baathist regime. AQ desired Iraqi funding, training, haven, and weaponry while Saddam desired that level of disconnect afforded by AQ (plausible deniability) in their mutually beneficial activities against Israel and, by extension, the US. The names of the AQ and Iraqi agents at these meetings in Jordan and Sudan (lasting through 1995) are also known. OBL's man was AQ#2, Ayman al-Zawahiri (Aa-Z) and Saddam's man was then Director of the Iraqi Intelligence Service (ISS), Faruq Hijazi. In American terms, this would be the equivalent of George Bush sending former CIA Director Tenet to meet the second-in-command of a paramilitary group, which would strike most people as an irrefutable link to the US and as a credible link to Bush personally.

Another OBL emmisary with proven Iraqi contacts was Mahmdouh Mahmud Salim (aka Abu Hajer al-Iraqi), who now is in prison in the US. Abu Hajer was tasked by OBL specifically for the purpose of procuring WMD. I trust no one will argue about Saddam's possession of chemical weaponry -- at least once upon a time. I refer here of course to the Kurdish and Iranian gassings that cannot be denied by anyone without surrendering all his credibility.

Another AQ-Iraq connection involves the IIS's Brigadier Salim al-Ahmed, an explosives expert sent by Saddam to OBL's farm in Khartoum in the fall of 1995 and in summer of 1996 in the company of then Director of the IIS, Mani abd-al-Rashid al-Tikriti. The itinerary for the meetings among these gentlemen included the construction of letter and parcel bombs, barometrically-activited bombs for use on airplanes, and AQ's need of more sophisticated forgery techniques in the creation of false passports, visas, and related entry papers. AQ operations during these Khartoum meetings were targeted at US and UK targets in Khobar and Dharan.

OBL himself is documented as having met Tariq Aziz in Baghdad in January 1998 and Zawahiri met Aziz in Baghdad the following month. This, of course, is the equivalent of Dick Cheney meeting with the leader of a paramilitary group. Getting pretty cozy at this point. The AQ goal of these meetings was to establish AQ training camps in Iraq at an-Nasiriyah and Iraqi Kurdistan under the leadership of Abdul Aziz (of Achille Lauro fame).

Four days after the meeting, OBL issued his infamous fatwa against America, calling for the killing of all Americans, civilian and military, and their allies. This coincided with increasing pressure from UNSCOM demanding access to Saddam's palaces where the UN believed illegal weaponry was stored.

Saddam sent Faruq Hijazi to Afghanistan in 1999 to meet bin Laden personally. AQ and Iraqi connections were so widespread by early 1999 that the fact even made its way into the mainstream press. Of course, this was before al Qaeda was a household name and before Bush was president. Check out the January 11, 1999 Newsweek article under the headline "Saddam + Bin Laden?"

And let's not forget 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta's meetings in Prague with Ibrahim Samir al Ani, Iraqi intelligence chief in that city. The Czechs maintain that four meetings took place between these men while our CIA can only confirm two meetings. Atta's extreme efforts to get to Prague for these meetings (he was ejected on his first attempt at entry) suggest that he was to receive needed funding and detail orders for what we now know was his big project in the US.

Al Zarqawi -- remember him? -- had undisputed contacts with IIS officers for procurement of RPG-18 launchers and similar tactical gear. These contacts continued up until Saddam's ouster in March 2003.

On the question of Saddam's direct connection to 9/11, I'd characterize the evidence as weak and the question itself as somewhat irrelevant because the tacit working relationship between Iraq and AQ is based on evidence that is overwhelming.

Sorry for the bandwidth usage, but it's an important point to make. Bartender, give my friend here a tall glass of STFU.

#266 - Posted by: Right makes might on September 19, 2004 05:00 PM

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Well ! I think RmR(Right Makes Right) summed it up for me, Sadly i do see your point tho, I am infact a War-Mongering American. But The evidence is clearly shown. Now as Far as the WWII comparison goes all i was pointing out there was the Societies outlook on the war itself, Ppl were more in support and there were no hippies to be found, thats right i hate every one of em. You see, I'm glad RmR is much smarter than i am. Believe me there were some of those things i didnt even know. (I know when to admit my lack of intelligence.) But just think about it, these countries hate us and everyone else who gets in their way. If the united states(hypothetical) had fallen to them what makes you think your Foriegn policies would keep them away, we frankly are the boulder they cant crack. And seriously if we were gone, you'd be next.

#267 - Posted by: Pirate King on September 19, 2004 07:08 PM

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Even if there had never been WMD (which there was) and if Iraq had never colluded with OBL (which it did), our toppling of Saddam was justified by his constant violations of the 1991 cease-fire provisions, specifically his almost daily missile-firings at our planes enforcing the United Nation's no-fly zones in the south. The humanitarian reason for waking Iraq from its long nightmare was a nice public relations by-product of the conflict, but not alone a sufficient reason for the conflict IMO.

Over the next few years, a large majority of the world will come to view radical Islam as an ideological plague, very much like people of goodwill today view Nazism. France will (again) be among the first to suffer near extinction from this anti-semitic pestilence, which they will (again) be unable to appease or buy off, but not for lack of trying.

The secular Baathist bastards were a great place to start setting things right and presenting a serious lesson plan that even theocratic A-rabs can understand. Bush will also be ranked by history as one of America's near-great presidents for his clear vision and decisive action, setting the 21st Century course for civilized behavior in the sandy regions of the planet.

America has nothing to apologize for. On the contrary, if our little Iraqi experiment works, as I'm confident over time it will, the rest of the world will owe us (once again) a big "thank you" for its continued existence -- not that we're expecting it from the ingrates.

If we fail, as a Kerry administration would ensure, so what? The Middle East will continue to suck as it has forever, but it'll suck without the Hussein Family. I count that as an improvement and so do 25 million other people who actually have first hand knowledge.

Oh yeah, look for Iran's nuclear facilities to be reduced to rubble early next year. Another freebie courtesy of the USA.

#268 - Posted by: Right makes might on September 20, 2004 12:09 AM

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you people have way to much time on your hands. I'm going to go do something useful. Like helping Kerry win!

#269 - Posted by: on September 21, 2004 02:22 PM

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....to the guy who said do something useful and let Kerry win...i have a very unintelligable retort to your statement.....F U
lol

PS. im in class writing this...so i had no time to come up with a good comeback lol

#270 - Posted by: Eddie Z on September 22, 2004 10:07 AM

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RmR, you scare me. Honestly. When I read you posts, it really scared me. First off I was glad that someone finally came up with real arguments, "proved" facts. Well, about that later on. But what scared me was the way you were writing this, telling me that you fundamentally believe in what you are saying. And there is no chance and never will be that you ever change your point of view by any point. Uuh, this is creepy. People like you scare me. People like you remind of movie-like serial killers, cutting your throat with a wicked smile on their face. Yeah, like Hannibal Lecter! Really, you remind me of him. Let me call you Hannibal from now on, also since your nick reminds me too much of Nazi-propagande-slogan. Oh damn, I never ever want to meet you in personal!
Nevertheless, let's get to the point. I can't disprove all your well assembled evidence. Maybe I could, of I had the time and patience to do. I just remember very cleary that at least your last point, the meeting between Atta and the Iraqi intelligence chief in Prague was one of the many arguments the Bush administration used to justify the war, and like many other arguments was disproved after the war. Like WMD and Iraq buying uranium and all that. The rest of your arguments: I'll accept it as possibly true. Nothing else to say for now. Must feel like a victory to you that I can't say much against it, doesn't it? Well, take it, if you need it. I suppose you don't need it since in my eyes you're way too stuck in your own points of view. But, so am I. I would say maybe a little less than you, but whatever. By the way, this !-posting was also from me, just a mistake. Don't want anyone else to take my hating credit!

#271 - Posted by: Q on September 22, 2004 11:54 AM

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That was a great letter. Michael Moore is worthless peice of liberal hippy trash. He devotes his life to spewing his hippy bullshit in any direction thats most profitable. He EXPLOITS our great nations darkest times in order to line his own pockets enough to buy 100 boxes of crispy creams. And what the hell is with the michagan referances?? I like the state but im sick of it. No one cares about your home town michael! The only thing anyone cares about is you shutting up. If you agree to leave this country I will buy you your plane ticket to canada.....ONE WAY.... and i second the above motion.....burn in hell Moore

#272 - Posted by: Ryan Smith on September 22, 2004 05:56 PM

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WOW. Things got boring on here in the summer, so I stopped checking back. WHAT HAVE I BEEN MISSING?? So umm, yeah, I have a few complaints about the football reference (not that comparing sports to war is wrong or anything, I can metaphor with the best of them) but the situation of the football game is not so "in the bag" as you say it is. It seems, to me, more along the lines of, well, we're in this game, and we're clearly a better team than the other guys, but even though we're ahead, they keep fighting, and they're deliberately taking out the knees of our players, not to mention some of the cheerleaders, and some fans, too. Not only that, but the game is only in the 1st quarter, and it's the slowest time clock in existence, so I can't see our guys getting off the field anytime soon, so they're just gonna keep getting injured, cause we can't convince the other guys to play fair.

700 american soldiers have died. Countless iraqi bystanders. How many beheadings now? Yeah, if we're keeping score, then America has more kills than the Iraqi militants. The question is, is this game worth winning anymore?? Is all this death REALLY going to fix things??

I realize that, to the soldiers, yeah, it's their job, and that they do the best they can, but I can't see them actually enjoying being there. My niece's 20 year old Husband is there, and he's scared for his life. I'm sure he'd love to get called home. I believe that most of these soldiers are there not because they agree with the "why's and why nots" of this war, but because they're fighting for their country, right or wrong. However, should we respond to their unconditional patriotism by letting them slowly die over there, one by one? I would think they'd appreciate it more if we found a way to get them safely back to their families. I'm sure they wouldn't be too upset that we took them away from that particular "job."

As far as the support issue goes, I do support the troops. I respect what they're doing, and I respect why THEY'RE doing it ie. patriotism. I don't support what your president is doing. The soldiers do not have the power to stop what is happening. Bush does, and he's just plowing on through, spending american lives for whatever reasons he's giving.

About the issues of America expecting "thanks" from all of us...Pardon? you're not doing us a favor when none of us agreed that it was a good idea. I don't understand where you think you jumped in and saved the asses of the rest of world. WW2?? WW1?? Last I checked, america sat on the fence until it was attacked. No goodwill there, thanks.

One last thing about the football reference, before I go: in a football game, the players have something at stake, some personal gain, if they win. In this war, no one's winning anything.

#273 - Posted by: Dark Canuck on September 23, 2004 03:09 AM

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RmR, by no means scary, mearly a informed and clear headed american. Thanks to you RmR for making me feel cozy!

Dark Canuck Why oh why! The US sat on the Fence until we were attacked? Let me remind you. Up until WWI and 2 were the problems of Europe solely the problems of Europe. During WWI Infact, The US was Heavily overcome by the great depression, not a startling fact as was the whole world. But Never the less we struggled to pull ourselves from economic deprivation and fought along side you as americans tend to do. Many ppl i'm sure are saying oh wow what a lame point but if you look at the historical facts isnt that why all war is created heavy threat and or invasion? People dont just get together and say "Oh lets war shall we?"

Through the decades The united States continued to allow the problems of Europe to remain the problems of Europe. Until WWII, yes we were bombed at Pearl Harbor. Yes we retaliated. But we set out to help and thats what we did. WWII is probably the most memorable war in the history of the US. Several thousands died. The war supposedly strengthened the ties between Europe and The US. Frankly that has not been shown in recent events. Did it ever occur to you all from Europe, that several hundreds of your own ppl died in the WTC attack. Hundreds from France, England, and other countries that play a part in our larger economic system. Relating back to WWII, the war itself strengthened and helped our economy grow into what it is today. Not just the US but the world as a whole. Japan was rebuilt into the super metropolitan community it is today, a point in history if you will. This is because when the united states helped rebuild Japan, Many things were added that japan had never seen. For instance, the blast furnaces used in Our own production date back to the early 20's Japan's however date back to the late 40's early 50's. This is the projected future i see for Iraq. With a Dictator annahilated and the set up of a new government, the country however, barren and hateful, Will regrow and blossom.

I say all this to bring up 2 major points. The land under tyrannical rule never prospers, the lusts of one person can bring the downfall of many. Also if you will, think of it like this I'd be suprised if we had let this continue, had they not turned into the next germany(of the 1940s.) Well thats all of My historical Ravings, find it useful or not necessary.

#274 - Posted by: The Pirate King on September 23, 2004 09:12 PM

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Well folks here is the straight deal on the war, I'll liken it to you this way. If you poke a tiger when it sleeps the tiger will wake and eat you while you are still alive, thereby allowing you to feel just how badly pissed off you made him. Do I feel bad about afghanistan.... Hell No Iraq.... Hell No
Do I think michael moore and the rest of the assholes in this country who hate it, yet reap its freedoms and benefits, should be dropped kicked in the nutz repeatedly with steel toed boots, and then made to walk barefoot over rusty sporks and shattered glass to get to their new middle eastern catbox of a country complete with genocidal, megolamaniac, eddificial, sociopathic dictator...... HELL YES
Freedom is purchased with the blood of the noble and the hearts of the courageous Let no man who calls himself such mock that EVER!

A quote from a lighter time and a better movie from long past "To the Army and Navy and the battles they have won, To America's colors the colors that never run...... May the wings of Liberty never loose a feather!"~~~Big trouble in little China~~~

#275 - Posted by: Captain America on September 26, 2004 09:00 PM

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I DONT CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ANY OF YOU HAVE TO SAY RIGHT NOW lol. Sorry...kind of got carried away. BUT I REALLY DONT RIGHT NOW. Because i just found out yesterday that my bro gets to come home right before Thanksgiving and stay till May....YAYYYYY. I'm sorry that i havnt come up with any good arguments or have had anything to say lately. I guess I am too stressed from school lol. Like right now, i'm writing this when i should be doing my drafting stuff. But OH WELL...HE GETS TO COME HOME WEEEEE. sorry lol. But the sad part is...he has to go back in May... :( So, if it be in your hearts, whatever your religion, pray for the troops and their famlies and KEEP DEBATING....hopefully i will someday become a MasterDebater :p

#276 - Posted by: The Ghost of Eddie Z on September 30, 2004 08:42 AM

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Mr Q, no need to be afraid of me, but I did want to add a few points. First, the nickname (read it more carefully this time) is from Abraham Lincoln's Cooper Union speech where he laid out his reasons for preserving the Union and denouncing the evil of slavery -- about as far from Nazi origins as one could get. Second, Irqaqi WMD did and do exist. Sarin-laced artillery shells, mobile germ labs, gas centrifuges buried in gardens -- all illegal, all banned by the U.N. More will turn up as well. Third, the Atta-Prague meetings were not disproven. The Czech's say there were four meetings, while the CIA could only confirm two. Fourth, Joe Wilson has been discredited and it is now generally conceded that Iraq was indeed seeking nuclear fuel in Africa.

Facts are not scary things and neither am I. Honestly, you actually could change my views if you were to marshal some facts (not factoids) to support your opinions, but lapsing into wild fantasies about serial killers and smiling throat slitters is not productive. Please try to be a little more tolerant and open minded.

#277 - Posted by: Right makes might on October 1, 2004 04:48 PM

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Ah, Michael Moore… I have a little secret that I’m not sure he knows but I think is ready to be unleashed on the world: I, a Canadian (gasp!) HATE Michael Moore! Oh yes, I went there.

Canada could do nothing less to piss on our American neighbors so in a large conspiracy of stupidity and ignorance have been instrumental in stroking Moore’s ego. Not only did Lion’s Gate Films (a Canadian company) distribute his tripe; but Canadians went to see his movie time and time again just so they could feed their Canadian elitist complex. The problem goes so deep in fact that it would appear that in my country Michael Moore can do no wrong… and in the spirit of capitalism I have some ideas for Michael so that he may continue a successful business on making money off dead people:

1)
Why dance around the fire Michael? You need to get to the heartstrings before you push your propaganda thereby side-swiping logic with emotion. Don’t show funerals of fallen soldiers or link an interactive menu of their faces and stories from your website; you’re too powerful for that! Instead, how about buying (you gots da $$$!) one of the fresh corpses and selling off pieces of it with a designer “MM” insignia? That way it could be as clear as day how you profit off of the people who’ve given their lives to ensure your (big assed) freedom. Although grotesque this could really give a feeling of honesty by not trying to cover up what you’re really doing.

2)
Buy Cuba! That’s right! Why support torture and rape from afar? Nothing says support like putting down your glasses, turning your hat around and smacking that bitch up with your own two hands! Sure she’s a 13 year old orphan but I bet she deserved it! Fidel could still watch your back as vice-dictator in training!

3)
Buy France! Your Cannes Film Festival success is a sure-fire way to free cheese and the future sales of nuclear reactors to Iraq! (or perhaps selling nuclear reactors to dictators is soooooo 1980’s)

4)
Part of your salesmanship Michael is the way you can book yourself as a martyr of the people; so in keeping with that fine tuned spirit I think I’ve got a winner here: The Passion of the Pinko. Hold on a sec, give this a chance! We can take Mel’s movie, splice it with some choice footage of people suffering in Iraq, splice in a little “George W. is stupid” footage and digitally alter it so YOU are nailed to the cross! To be sure that you get maximum dollar value for this work, though, I would advise pitching the sales of the DVD and ‘music inspired by the movie’ compact disc right after you get nailed to the cross.

5)
Keep us guessing! How about you do your next movie using the same footage from F9/11 except use it in the proper context? That way you could have a whole conspiracy theory against yourself that would keep all of us guessing! You would be the same one lying and telling the truth… selling tickets to both sides of the equation! Fights will erupt at whether you were right or wrong based on whether you were initially right or wrong! John Kerry will hate it! Or love it! Or hate it! Er… love it!

6)
The best way to get your message out is to get the proper media attention. Sometimes the most effective way to do this is to piggyback onto another mainstream issue. Michael, I have got the perfect partnership for your next movie: swim with the whales and get this, BEACH YOURSELF! It’s so beautiful it’s almost poetic; perhaps the footage taken of you as a beached whale suffering under the hot sun could be used in “The Passion of the Pinko”. As your bleached blubbered skin gets torn into by UV rays and you continue to spout the same B.S. out of your blowhole you could really pump up ticket sales to your next exploitative masterpiece!

7)
Ah yes, the best for last. In one last ditched effort to exploit death and destruction perhaps your final act could also be the one that cleans the sins from your tarnished name. Perhaps in the future and look in the mirror and realize that terrorists used your film to energize and mobilize terrorist attacks that killed your fellow countrymen (that you of course care sooooo much about) you will see what you really are: an indirect terrorist to the world at large. With this knowledge I believe you could repent by making money off death one last time: sell tickets over the Internet to watch you stab yourself to death (since using a gun would hideously clash with your abra-cadaver melee BFC) and donate all proceeds to artillery for the troops. I know I’d buy a ticket.

So Michael, I love the fact that you lie through your teeth and that Canadians eat it up more than you can dish it out. Canadians at large will continue to buy your crap (literally! Perhaps that should be number 8! Sell your crap on eBay!), but to those of us who realize what’s really at stake we will consider you a propagandist, terrorist, and someone who’s final judgment before the Almighty will be worthy of a Pay Per View broadcast.

James

#278 - Posted by: James on October 4, 2004 04:42 AM

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Pirateking, thanks for the "reminder" that the US fought through the Depression of the 1930's to help out Europe during WW1, which took place from 1914 to 1918. Oh, wait a second...

The great depression took place after the stock market crash of 1929, 11 years after the end of world war 1. For the record, it hurt Canada just as much as the states. However, when the call to the world came in 1939, that Europe needed help, Canada helped out immediately, even while suffering the aftereffects of the depression.

I'm not calling down the United states (america's the wrong term, really, on account of it covers pretty much the entire western hemisphere, not just the country in which you reside) for not joining the war immediately - hey, we decided not to join the war in Iraq, to each their own, I guess - but don't expect thanks from the rest of the world just because you got hit at home halfway through the wars. And it happened BOTH times. Pearl harbor in WW2, and, if memory of history class serves me correctly, something about shipping lanes being attacked in the First world war.

Anyway, that's the point I was making, you make it sound like the US joined the war out of the goodness of their hearts, when in reality they joined because they got beat up at lunchtime.

#279 - Posted by: Dark Canuck on October 5, 2004 05:07 AM

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Dear Hannibal, I think you misunderstood me. Or in return, you didn't read my post carefully enough. Is my english that bad? I don't think so, but whatever.
1. I don't think that your facts are scary, as you said it. I think YOU are scary, since you give me the impression that you are supporting the decisions of the Bush administration with a kind of religious and fanatic attitude. And that really scares me.
2. I don't base my statements on fantasies about serial killers. I tried to bring some kind of humorous touch, but I guess you didn't get it. But it has nothing to do with my arguments.
3. Your nick reminds me of a Nazi slogan, no matter where it came from. I read it carefully enough to understand it, and in my eyes it means "If you have the right to do something, you have the might to do it." Bush had the "right" to attack Iraq, in his eyes at least, so he did it. It was legal and necessary in his eyes. By the way, so was Hitler's ascent to become a dictator. It was legal due to the laws of his time. To make it clear: I don't say that Bush can be compared to Hitler. Just an example how "right makes might".
4. I have seen no real evidence that WMD do exist. In fact, look who says the same:
link
Read the article, and you will also find that Mr. Rumsfeld says that there was no link between Saddam and Al Quaeda.
And last: please do never ever tell me to be open minded and tolerant. I know what this means, and I consider myself open minded and tolerant, but obviously you don't know what it means.

#280 - Posted by: Q on October 5, 2004 07:01 AM

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I hope blood pressure kills you before someone else does you fat f!@K. Michael Moore has only one goal make money off the press and our men and women in the armed forces.......

#281 - Posted by: on October 11, 2004 02:28 AM

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Hello. Mr. Michael.

I liked youy movie.. Farenheit nine eleven.

But....


.... Why you didn't say nothing about " Israel"? or about " Mossad'... " Protocols of Zion". Zionism in republican party..... " New world disorder".. Rothschild's money.. etc, etc, etc.....

Don't u believe the WTC, was a Moussad and Israel terrorist act?

Well... Many people arond the country, and beyond, believe that!
And it make sence!... What do u think about it?

Will it be in your next movie?

#282 - Posted by: EkBlaam on October 11, 2004 12:07 PM

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Hello. Mr. Michael.

I liked youy movie.. Farenheit nine eleven.

But....


.... Why you didn't say nothing about " Israel"? or about " Mossad'... " Protocols of Zion". Zionism in republican party..... " New world disorder".. Rothschild's money.. etc, etc, etc.....

Don't u believe the WTC, was a Moussad and Israel terrorist act?

Well... Many people arond the country, and beyond, believe that!
And it make sence!... What do u think about it?

Will it be in your next movie?

#283 - Posted by: EkBalam on October 11, 2004 12:08 PM

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Eh I stand corrected. My ass whoopin at lunch time was so horrendous, whatever i'm sick of everyone debating about who was right and who was Wrong, grow up. Arguments are bullshit we did what we did so get over it. I dont care about how you feel. I dont care about your foreign policies and frankly i dont care about other peoples opinion. Althouh dark you were correct, i did leave some gaps of time there my own fault. But as a statement to the wiser of the bunch, talking to ppl about this is the same as trying to have babies with a wild giraffe, gross and pointless.

#284 - Posted by: The Pirate King on October 12, 2004 12:26 AM

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Since no one has been posting i've taken the time to increase my genious and Read the WHOLE page... man second grade sure helped here... Frank J. I salute you!!! This has been a great adrenaline booster for me in the past few months... i really wonder tho... can this many ppl be opposed to change? Most ppl veiw conservatives as anti abortion anti gay anti black blah blah fuckin blah... I'll tell you what... i'm gonna introduce you to the only Agnostic(a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable;one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god)ahem... The only Agnostic Conservative, thats right... you met me... feel lucky... i'm so tired of these constant babblings of john jerry and his greatness... has one of you ever heard a SPECIFIC stand point of his? I'll tell you the answer and it is no... 1. he's shifty, he's apparently got some plan for the war... elaboration? Nope unnecessary for john kerry... 2. he focuses on education and fighting for the poor, the man has never been poor a day in his life... born into the wealthiest of families he feels that he owe's something to the lower class? I've been poor i've been robbed i've been shot at and i'm only 18 years old... no i'm not some thug or hard ass... I'm your average White male, born and raised poor. If thats not enough to convince you... i'll tell you something else... i live on a farm... a farm... now how does that contribute to anything... simple... i'm not some ghetto white kid with some attitude, yes at one point i did live in the ghetto hence the getting shot at... oh yeah tack that to me too now i'm insensitive to the lesser dwellings of others... well shut up i've been there i know how it feels... Now i live on my own... my own place my own car my own Money... think things have changed? No i'm still the same goddamned kid. Now i tell you that to say this... over my life Several presidents ahve presided both democrat and republican, and there's one thing I've learned you arent going to change shit by bringing in some jackass who has some 4 point plan for some bullshit that he doesnt understand... yeah i know bush is a wealthy oil baron from texas... but what president wasnt wealthy? you know how much money a campaign costs?! god now i'm rambbling... oh one more thing... i swear to god if another one of those stupid door to door democrats comes to my house i'm gonna punch his teeth in... later kids

#285 - Posted by: The Pirate King on October 19, 2004 01:07 AM

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Michael Moore is Satan,just fatter and uglier. Let's ban together and follow him everywhere he goes and throw tomatoes at him. Let's stand outside his parents house (where I think he lives in the basement) and protest to his lies. Buy Farenhype 9-11!!!

#286 - Posted by: Becca Phillips on October 19, 2004 08:46 PM

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MM is not the devil. The devil is accually a man that works in a auto shop in Helena, Montana. Anyway, I fell like I have failed. When I created the Republican Party I thought it would help mankind like I did. But I guess I have to come down there again and show you people how to act. But this time I'm gona whop some ass.

#287 - Posted by: Jesus Christ on October 20, 2004 10:05 AM

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Moore BS. First time in my life I think I have actually honestly hated someone.Michael Moore you fat SOB,You don't deserve to live in this country and I hope I never have the chance to see you in person, I really don't feel like letting the devil side of me out.You fat liberal Pig of a man, shameful in the eyes of the real americans who have fought and died for your fat lying rhetoric.Michael Moore.. are you proud of yourself?Are you sleeping well at night knowing that you have divided this country and put our fine men and women who are dying for freedom in a more dangerous situation.This is a war my friend and whether you realize it or not,You have gotten rich on the blood of our troops.You should leave this country and never return.The real americans don't want you here and I hope one day soon, you choke on a big mac while on worldwide tv. Moore needs to be deported and sent to the depths of HELL. I bet Satan himself wouldn't even have you. Moore you are as sorry as they come.Moore is one sick man, seeking attention thru the blood of the couragous. You shameful piece of garbage.

#288 - Posted by: glymers on October 31, 2004 11:04 PM

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Congrats Mr. President! I knew you could Do it!

#289 - Posted by: The Pirate King on November 4, 2004 01:28 PM

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MM sucks! Someone should make a mosaic of him out of cheeseburgers!

#290 - Posted by: on November 4, 2004 09:43 PM

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i hope that fat SOB gets a god damn heart attack.

#291 - Posted by: charlie on November 4, 2004 10:01 PM

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This is an Awsome site that I found by mistake. I will most likely bookmark this one!! Sincerely,Gmoney.........

#292 - Posted by: Gmoney on November 5, 2004 07:55 PM

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Who does Michael Moore think he is? He just sits in Hollywood with his fat liberal friends, who are so pretentious that they think they make a difference in politics. Why doesn't he try to be like Arnold and actually run for office? He really needs to just shut up his big fat mouth once in a while. His little movie made me hate liberals instead of hating Bush. He needs to just stay out of most people's lives and stop thinking he makes a difference, BECAUSE HE DOESN'T!!!!!!!!

#293 - Posted by: Malerick Kisaragi on November 8, 2004 10:31 AM

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P.S.

If Michael Moore hates the U.S. so much, tell him he can go live in the Middle East, where are brave troops are.

#294 - Posted by: Malerick Kisaragi on November 8, 2004 10:33 AM

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Michael Moore's new movie should be called "Super Size Me: Oh, wait, Mcdonalds already did."

Stupid fat liberal.

#295 - Posted by: Malerick Kisaragi on November 8, 2004 10:39 AM

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That was the funniest fucking letter I ever read. I loved the GWB cartoon. It's so damn funny I choked.

#296 - Posted by: andophiroxia on November 10, 2004 01:34 AM

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You all suck!! Michael Moore rules!!

#297 - Posted by: Pero Peric on November 11, 2004 10:21 AM

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I just want to make it clear on behalf of my entire race that we have disowned Mr. Moore since 1989, not unlike the way the bin Laden clan disowned Osama.

It is highly embarrassing to even admit relation to this walking cholesterol farm, but I assure you that we have disowned him.

Therefore please don't make unfair attacks on the rest of the Hutts when Michael Moore is your target because we disowned him.

#298 - Posted by: Jabba the Hutt, Jr. on November 12, 2004 04:09 PM

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Stop it all of you!!
Michael Moore is my gay lover! Ok I said it.
It just makes me cry!

#299 - Posted by: master D on November 15, 2004 01:10 AM

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