Gun talk is always good. The Sig Sauer is a most excellent high end weapon. Priced at around $750-$950, they offer a good value. You get many of the Kimber level features without the price. For 1911s you cannot beat the Kimber or an Ed Brown. I recommend a Weatherby when you want to do some sniperin'

I no longer conceal carry my colt 1991, during normal movement I pushed the safety to the off position - quite scary. For carry purposes I carry a S&W 38 special airframe with federal hydroshock bullets (NRA published an FBI study showing the number of one-shot-kills the police had, this specific bullet was 3'rd behind .357 and .44 - nice comapny to have :) )

Even though the glock has a fairly light trigger pull the firing pin is not engaged untill the trigger is at half pull(it actually rests below the cartrige), and the little trigger safety means that whatever is moving the trigger must push it directly from the middle and directly back - something really only your finger can do while concealed. Plus the way the barrel fits in the slide makes the Glocks very accurate.

We had a sig saur once, nothing really bad or good to say about it. Worth the price but didn't really eccel at anything (we mostly target shoot).

Since my heart went gimpy, I sleep too much and don't wake as easily as before. As a result I've been planning on puting a robotic security system. That leads to the following question:
What is a good gun for ceiling mounted robotic arms?
I was always a single action revolver guy myself but I don't see that being practical for the robots.

My dad had a .45 Colt automatic when he was in the 8th Air Force in stationed in Poddington, England. He didn't keep it after the war. Damn!

Seems to me that if you're accidentally putting your 1911 off-safe in normal movement, you've got a crappy holster (or your safety is Tango Uniform, and should be smithed).

Glad you mentioned the "assault weapons" ban. It's actually supposed to expire next year. Here's a website on that:

http://www.awbansunset.com/

Some good info there, keeping up with the issue.

I have a S&W snubbie for carry myself, loaded with +P rounds to make sure I punch a hole in whatever needs hole-punchin'.

Does the "weapons that look cool ban" include the limits on magazine capacities, or is that a bill with no expiration?

My dad used to own a super-fine Sig Sauer until my mom made him sell it, I still resent her for that.

I never did get to fire it, oh well, when I turn 21 in like 5 years I'll buy one and take it to college for protection.

Tim E

A couple of pedantic gun nuts points here...

NOT correcting typos (Do not send Zatoichi after me)...

Realizing that our beloved Frank J. must be under great stress playing the next blow in the batttle against the puppy blender...

The "Dirty Harry" revolver is the Model 29 (629 in stainless). Got a 4" model, love it. But it does rar' back a bit. Still there's just something about the great big kill'n hole in the barrel that I like.

And the standard-sized Glock .45 is the model 20. Big, big weapon. Got the Model 20 in 10mm. It falls into the "crew-served" category.

Furthermore, I bet the Enemy shoots a 9mm!

And Spoons..."Tango(?) Uniform"? Polite term for Foxtrot Uniform, perhaps? I haven't heard that one, please elaborate.

Me? I've got a Ruger P90 that I bought when I turned 21. It's got great balance, is utterly industructable, reasonably accurate (let's face it...a handgun - no matter how good the handgun - will only be SO accurate without serious modification and customization. I don't know about you, but I'm not plunking down $1,200 for a race gun), and, with more than 2,000 rounds through it, completely reliable (maybe two jams not caused by using lousy reload ammo through the years). It's got a super-stiff aluminum alloy frame, and all stainless barrel, slide, and trigger assemblies. The price was right (around $350 in 1996), and I've been extremely happy with the gun. All of these points aside, it's a .45. That's all I needed to know. I would have loved to snag a Colt 1991, or Springfield 1911, but they were both a bit out of my price range.

It only comes with seven-round clips, but, like my Dad always said, if what you're shooting at won't drop with seven rounds of .45 ACP, you've got bigger problems than the magazine capacity to worry about.

I carry a Kimber Pro-Carry concealed - cross-draw in front and have NEVER bumped the safety off. I **TRIED** to do so and couldn't manage it. Neither in my concealed holster in front nor in my open-carry Foebus holster on the side. I haven't managed to do so with my Taurus PT22 backup either (variety of locations). How'd you manage the trick??

As to magazine capacity - I've got 8 in the mag and one up the spout, plus I carry two spares. To steal a line from 'The Rappin' Duke': "200 punks, well what you gonna do? I've got two six-shooters that'll see me through. That's 12 dead...and 188 pall-bearers." (Although in my case it'd be 25 dead and 175 pall-bearers, but I'm not picky).

Orion

Dan,
Well, that teaches me to just rely on my memory when recovering from illness. Corrections made.

My Dad has a 629 and a S&W .357 (2" barrel, I forget the model number); both are great guns. For revolvers, it doesn't seem you can go wrong with S&W (I'd certainly like to hear stories to the contrary if anyone has one).

My friends dad has a S&W and he says they tend to gum up more then others if you neglect or don't get a chance to clean them as often. Maybe he's full of it...I don't know, I'll stick to my Sig Sauer.

Tim E

Even more pedantic gun nut stuff:

The full-size .45ACP Glock is the model 21, the 10mm is the model 21. I am itching for the model 29, the compact 10mm.

Tango Uniform is short for t*ts-up, dead, non-functional.

Dammit, the 10mm is the model 20. I'm go sit in the corner now.

I have a Sig Sauer P229. It shoots .40 rounds, and is bigger than the Glock. Hubby has one, too, and he chooses to wear his Glock for conceal carry, but the Sauer around the farm. I manage a conceal carry with my Sig wearing a shoulder holster and flannel jacket, but I'm not a tiny little thing (6'1"). The Sig has no safety, but my holster blocks the hammer, which is good enough for me. I'm also a much better shot with the longer-stock Sig than with the butt-stock Glock.

Anybody ever shoot a H&K USP? You can get them in 9mm, .40 and .45, maybe some other calibers too but I have never seen any others. Anyways these are great guns, a little pricey but extremely accurate and very cool looking. Rivals the 1911 as my favorite handgun.

You can get high capacity (12rds, 15rds?) H&K SOCOM .45 that was originally designed for special forces (may have threaded barrel for silencer). When I saw one at a gun show, it looked about as big as a Desert Eagle.

Go flamethrower for the ceiling mounted gun... nothing scares the shit out of people quite like a burst of flames...

Aargh! You know it's bad when your corrections are wrong. Amazing, Kirk, you did the same thing I did but in reverse! LOL

That 10mm is a beast with its full power loads. I bet shooting that mini-10mm is an experience.

I am a big-time Smith fan. I love their ergonomics, the best out-of-the-box trigger in the business, and way more accurate than I am. Being a former jarhead, I never let them get dirty enough to gum up. The only downside of the 29/629 IMO is that it is not stout enough to survive an extended diet of full-power loads. Ask me about the time (when I was young and stupid, and thought the ONLY reason to reload was so you could make rounds hotter than factory) that I buried the hammer of my M29 in my forehead...

I had a Python at one time. Absolutely the most beautiful workmanship and design imaginable. I got rid of it though. I was so used to Smiths I just couldn't get used to the differences in the trigger pull and the cylinder catch (Smith = push in, Colt = pull out). Course if I started out with a Colt, I probably would not have been able to get used to a Smith. Perversely, now I want another one. Lesson: Never sell your guns.

Most exciting news lately: Smith has come out with a 1911. Wonder how it compares to the Kimbers, about which I have heard everyone rave.

My cousin has the USP compact 45. It doesn't fit my hand too well, although he swears by it. It's a little big for a compact, IMO. I have my eye on the Sig P245.

I have an H&K USP .45 (not compact) that fits like a glove and shoots like a dream.

I've known several people that have fired the H&K USP Compact in 9mm; ALL of them complain it just doesn't feel right, which is a real problem, because they are all very different-size people.

.45 is a good caliber; readily-available ammo (but pricey compared to 9mm), and a really big, impressive kill'n end.

Later, I will have to have a Frank On Guns about gun care. You should be cleaning your gun after everytime you fire it... unless you don't care about it working.

Dan,
A wise man once said to me: "There are two things you never sell: books and guns."

Actually, he was just some guy from my gun club at college, but it seems like good wisdom.

Mister J,

As far as I can tell, all the stipulations were lumped into one bill. Here it is:

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/laws/majorlaw/h3355_en.htm

Do a search for 110101 to get to the Firearms part, and 110105 for the effective date and expiration date.

Looks to me like all the provisions of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 expire in September 2004.

Truer words were never spoken.

By the way, college GUN club? Hell, at the third-rate Berkeley wannabe I went to, I *was* the college gun club. And the "Young Republican"...

Glock 29, 10mm Compact
I used one of these to pass my CHL exam (firing portion).

Recoil is not bad, but much more noticable than the Glock 30 (same weapon in .45ACP). Much less recoil than a S&W 640 in .357mag. Essentially, a controllable, concealable .41mag made outta steel & polymer. Good versus 2 and 4 legged predators. The uniformed think that any 10mm is excessive in recoil. I think it depends on the launching pad, and glock pistols always seem to have less subjective recoil than just about any other comparable hole-puncher.

Boy, I want one bad.

My $0.02, take it for what its worth.

Glock 29, 10mm Compact
I used one of these to pass my CHL exam (firing portion).

Recoil is not bad, but much more noticable than the Glock 30 (same weapon in .45ACP). Much less recoil than a S&W 640 in .357mag. Essentially, a controllable, concealable .41mag made outta steel & polymer. Good versus 2 and 4 legged predators. The uniformed think that any 10mm is excessive in recoil. I think it depends on the launching pad, and glock pistols always seem to have less subjective recoil than just about any other comparable hole-puncher.

Boy, I want one bad.

My $0.02, take it for what its worth.

Agree with that, Jason. Felt recoil in my Glock is much less that the only other 10mm I ever fired, a Delta Elite. That Colt was worse than a 4" .44 mag.

Dan - no kidding! Type well from work I don't very well.

My uncle has one of the Dan Wesson .44 Magnums. Recoil with the 4" tube is not as bad as you would think. They also make a 2" snubby barrel that turns it into a flamethrower as well. LOTS of powder burning at the muzzle.

Kirk

I have a full size HK USP40. I love it. were it not for size, that thing would go everywhere with me. I purchased a Glock22 (.40) and thought it was very cool until I went back to the HK. It is a dream. A cool pic in the sales literature shows what happened to a USP when a round was squibbed midway through the barrel and a follow on round used to clear the squib. both rounds cleared the barrel, the gun continued to function with a barely discernable (sp?) decrease inaccuracy.
DOWNSIDE: Full size USP mags will not fit in the compact frames like the Glocks will.

That was me on the HK Rant. I have a buddy that won't sell me his Glock 20. bummer

(9mm,.40,.45,10mm,sig.357... did I miss any?).

Glock sells .380s in Europe (those are the two missing numbers between 17 and 36). I don't think you can get them here, although I don't know if that's for legal reasons or just because nobody in America would want one. The only reason Glock made them is because some European countries outlaw civilian possession of military calibers such as 9x19mm NATO.

Since we are bragging about our guns, I own a a Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum with a 6" heavy duty barrel. Not very practical for concealment purposes but is highly accurate and looks really cool. I highly reccomend Ruger's revolvers. They are reasonably priced and very sturdy.

OT (more caliber related), forget about using 38 special ammo. You don't want to piss some PCP addict off. .357 magnum all the way baby!!!!

-Shtetl G

For concealed carry, the Kahr MK40 is da bomb. Gotta say, I carry it every day and barely notice it at all with an inside the pants holster. When the shirt's tucked in, It fits great in the belly band. And .40 cal is a good bit o' killin' power. 5+1 with an extra 6 shot extended mag and the whole thing is just about 5" by 4"

THe Baretta Cougar .45 (8045D) is moderately compact, acurate and just sweet-lookin. An easy .45 for concealed carry.

Have a Sig P220 (45 ACP) and love it. Have not felt the need to modify or tune it one bit other than installing rubberized Hogue grips.

Have fired the Glock 27 (40 S&W) and was suprised how accurate it was for a "cut down" gun. Glocks really don't turn my crank (but I have nothing against them either) but the 27 is on the list of things to get "eventually".

For a snubnose revolver I like the S&W model 38 "Bodyguard". It has a shrouded hammer so there is still the option of firing it single action.

Frank J. - I have had the opportunity to shoot a H&K SOCOM and it is a beautiful thing. Almost caused me to max out a credit card.

The best snubbie on the market is the Ruger Sp-101 with a 2&1/8 barrel. It will survive 20,000 rounds of .357 magnum ammo!
I have several Para Ordnance 1911s. The 7.45 LDA kicks ass. The Tac-4 is like butta'.
My Beretta Elite II is my main gun. Its chambered in 9mm. 127 gr. +p+ Ranger SXT.
When all else fails...Mini-14. Oh, yeah!!!

I bumped the safety off a low profile safety - it can and does happen from time to time (one other person at the local gun club had it happen), I carried it for several years before it happened in a shoulder harness - a pretty expensive one made for police and specifically that gun. I do not know what action during the day it happened, but at the start of the day the safety was on and at the end of the day I had been carrying a cocked single action pistol with the safety off.

It can not happen on my revolver or my double action pistol.

As with anything that is pointing at parts of you and is able to remove said parts forcefully - I'm no longer going to take the chance. I either carry a revolver or a double action pistol de-cocked (and I can get those pistols that are just as impressive as the 1991 a1). It just wasn't worth the risk when I have perfectly good ones other than it - and it gave me a chance to convert it back to a target pistol.

When I was a cop/combat firearms instructor (before I joined the Air Force) I had the opportunity to shoot a whole bunch of handguns. By far, my favorite is the Sig 22x series. I've had 220 in .45, 225 (8 rd mag) and 228 (13 round mags) both in 9mm. I'd really like to get a Sig .40. All excellent guns with a great track record and real-world-no-kidding performance.

Brother in law has the HK .40. Love that gun, too.

Other than that, there's not too many guns that I would trust my life too. I've seen Rugers and S&Ws get rounds lodged. Also, I had a Ruger that wouldn't fire upside down (we used to do Die-Hard style obstacle courses in my class). And I've never shot a Baretta that I thought was worth a damn. Too loose for me. Had a Glock .40 that I liked, but the grip forced my hand into the travel range of the slide, so I always got railroad-tracks when I shot it.

Never been much of a wheel-gun guy, but my dad just gave me a S&W .38 snub. Those are pretty fun and small enough to fit in a back pocket.

Also, for nostalgia, I love the 1911.

While we're being pedantic, Glock wasn't the first manufacturer of "plastic" (aka polymer) pistols, HK was. In the late 70s or early 80s they manufactured a pistol called the "VP70" which came in at least 2 versions, the "M", which was full auto capable (when used with a specail shoulder stock) and the "Z" which was semi-auto.

These pistols used a straight blowback design, and had a *horrible* trigger pull of around 21 pounds.

That gave them 3 strikes out the door:
1) Plastic.
2) Looked strange (most Gun buyers tend to be conservative in their tastes, witness the witless devotion to the 1911 and the .45)
3) Horrible trigger.

Oh--and it held 18 rounds (if memory serves)standard and had a 30 round magazine as an option (when you've got a cyclic rate close to 2k rpm in hose mode, you need 30 rounds to get a second shot off) so Glocks model 17 with the 19 round magazine wasn't all that large.

Strcpy,

Thanks for the info! :-)

Orion

21 pounds! Not for precision shooting, eh? Didn't the select fire models have a detachable stock?

More unsolicited opinion: Love Ruger DA revolvers, second only to Smiths in my book; Not fond of their autos however. A buddy of mine in the USMC bought a P90 (IIRC) when they first came out back around 1990. Unreliable POS. However, the Ruger autos got better after that first run, and now concensus is that they're as good as anything in that price range. I've just never got over that initial bad experience.

In terms of 9mm's I hear good things about the Kahr pistols, although I have no firsthand experience with them.

In other news, the Puppy Blender likes the Sig. I retract my earlier sneer about him probably liking the 9mm. Seriously, there's nothing wrong with the 9mm IMO. I'm a big believer in .40+ caliber, but in reality it's like hacking on your buddy 'cuz he likes a different football team anyway.

Duh...Maybe I should read a bit more carefully before posting.

It's official. I have now posted more on this thread than in the ~1 year I have been reading IMAO.

The VP70 was not full auto capable as is often said. The military variant with the stock attached was capable of a 3 round burst. I know this because I have owned one and have fired the special version while at Ft Benning. Intersting gun. While considerably less useful than other guns, don't discount it. Its interesting and capable if firing super hot loads that would blow up a Glock.

One other interesting pistol that is often over looked... The CZ-52. You can buy one for about 130 bucks, and a few boxes of ammo and be out the door your your new gun for less money than a set of custom grips for most other guns.
It fires a round that can zip through virtually anything and goes through soft armor like rifle shot. It's one of my favorite handguns. Very evil. I recomend them highly. However you must educate yourself on them before you rush out to buy one.
Ogre Out.

A strange alternative to double action autos and single action 'condition one' carry: the Norinco Model 77B. A single action 9mm semi auto with a difference - the front of the trigger guard is a separate piece which can be used to rack the slide. It can be carried in 'condition three' (empty chamber, full magazine) and with a little practice you can draw it from the holster and rack the slide with one hand by the time you've got it up to eye level.

Kinda cool, if you go in for that oddball stuff. (but I'll take a DA auto for real carry duty)

Forgot,

Paraordnance makes a compact .45 (10 rd mag) that is a blast to shoot and pretty nice for carry as well. I think it's the P13.

Anybody confirm?

Here in Arkansas we have a down-home gunsmith, Wilson Arms

Very nice, customized 1911 style handguns. I have short fingers and have a hard time with the standard Colt (I'm also missing the tip of my trigger finger) but the Wilson fit nicely.

Just sayin'

The Glock chart is here, for reference.

I shot a model 23 (.40 midsize) this past weekend for the first time. Eh. Okay gun, but shooting one talked me out of buying one.

I have yet to fire a gun that handled as well as my Springfield 1911 .45. Awesome gun.

Spoons,
I saw your picture of your Springfield. That is a sweet gun. Originally, I was going to save up and buy one, but then my dad gave me his Colt 1991.

I have a HK USP .40, got it instead of the .45 cause the wife is much more comfortable with the grip. It is a very good weapon; accurate and a nice trigger, fit and finish are excellent. If you haven't shot one, you must.

"Plus, reloading is quick and cool, as nothing beats slapping in a new magazine and raking the slide"

Hmm. I've never fired a semi-auto, but doesn't the slide stay open after the last round? Don't you flick a lever to close it after "slapping in" the fresh mag?

Personally, my ideal gun would be a Springfield 1911 in 9mm and .45 (convertible) with a Ciener .22 conversion unit. Unfortunately, I can't find anything on the Net to tell me if a 9mm/.45 convertible is possible. Anybody know?

Actually the Sigs are not made in Germany. At least only part of them are. They are made in Exeter, NH. I believe that the frames do or at least did come from Germany. The slide and the rest is made here. I have seen them for less than the $750 mentioned above. I have also seen some used police ones that have a lot of holster wear but are otherwise in good shape for much less.

I really like my Sig P-229 in .40. So much so that I bought a second one for my son. He would have it now but he went and moved down to MA where he can't own it till he is 21.

When I was practicing a lot I had some fun doing metallic silouhette shooting with it. Knocking over rams at 100 yards with it got some comments from those trying to do it with fancy guns with adjustable sights or scopes.

However I have a confession to make. As much as I like the Sig I don't find myself carrying it much. I often carry in situations that are legal but would be expensive if someone knew. I ended up with a Kel Tec P-32 in a Krammer pocket holster. That thing is never out of my pants pocket except when they are in the wash! I always have it with me and I don't even have to think about carrying it no matter what I am wearing. I haven't taken it swimming yet thought. :-)

I heard that Kel Tec has a .380 version out that is only slightly larger than the P-32. I'll check it out when one of the local gun shops gets one in.

That's correct, Dave, although there are a very few (mostly older or small-caliber) that do not. You wouldn't want them anyway for any serious purpose.

The little lever with which you close the slide is called the "slide stop." On every auto I have ever fired, you can also pull the locked-open slide slightly to the rear and release it and the slide will return to battery (closed).

This "slingshot method" assumes that the unloaded magazine is no longer in the pistol, of course, since it is the magazine follower (plate on top of the spring on which the cartridges rest inside the magazine) that causes the slide stop to lock the slide open.

Hope this helps.

Dave S - You should not get in the habit of using the slide release lever to drop the slide. That requires fine motor skills which you will not have in a stressful situation. In personal defense courses I, and others teach, we tell students to grab the back of the slide, pull back, and let go when it reaches the stop. The hand should keep going back. Don't ride the slide forward or you may slow it down enough that it does not go completely into battery.

Dave S., try springfieldarmory.com

Seems to me I have seen such an animal before, but I couldn't say for certain.

I have a Sig Sauer P 226 .40 S&W. Fired probably about a thousand rounds through of various ammo and no problems.

Oddly enough, I've had nothing but problems with the H&K USP models, stovepipe jams being the most common problem (in 9mm and .45ACP).

I'm glad Shtetl mentioned the Ruger revolvers; they are very well-made, and I like the fact that there's a physical barrier in front of the firing pin until you actually pull the trigger. (Mine is a 4" SP 101--a nice, medium-size .357 wheelgun.)

The Smith revolvers are nice, though as I understand it Taurus does just as good a job for a little less money.

The Ladysmith revolver is just a Chief's Special--a snubby--with rosewood stocks (grips). It's a nice carry gun. (I had a regular [gender-neutral] Chief's special .38, but I gave it to my mother. Rather, I loaned it to her, and she decided to keep it. It was my first gun ever.)

Glocks are great, but I know they aren't for everyone. My husband has a Model 21 (.45), and I have a Model 23 (.40). I like the way the trigger pulls--very smooth.

As for 1911s, I prefer the Commanders (standard--not lightweight). That will be my next gun (unless I can find a old German Luger, which I'd love to own someday).

My current carry gun is a Ruger Tomcat, a .32 with a "tip-up" barrel. The "poor man's Seecamp." (Though a real Seecamp is one of my future gun ambitions as well.) I know .32 is a little light for defense, but I still imagine one of those right in the heart would sting--and, of course, I load it with JHPs.

Tony - I have been leaning towards the Kel-Tec. How does it shoot? I usually carry my 1911, but I need something that I can drop into a pocket when I can't have my shirt untucked. I have a S&W 642, but it is still kinda bulky in a pants pocket.

Kirk

> Go flamethrower for the ceiling mounted gun... nothing scares the shit out of people quite like a burst of flames...

A five-gallon gas can in front of a Claymore will clear the room.

The Kel Tec P-32 is meant for short self defense distances. However I have tried it at 50 feet. If I am careful I can keep them all on a standard bullseye target. I would not want to have to use it for defense at over a few yards. Especially given that shot placement is more important with the small caliber.

You can check out the Kel-Tec Ownser's Group at: http://www.ktog.org/ Lots of info there.

I did have some initial reliability problems. I had to send it back and they quickly took care of it.

I suggest checking out the Kel-Tec P-3AT .380 version. See: http://www.keltec.com/p3at_pistol.htm

Hey I was wondering if you could tell me the name and location of that shooting range in Idaho. Thanks!

i never really looked into firearms untill this day and was wondering what can be a good choice
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medium like usp,but that much ammo is not good in canada...suggestions?

Any1 here accually seen "Bowling for Columbine"
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I'm a retired P.O. have a 1911 Colt/Seecamp conversion to double action. Fired only six times since taken out of G.I. cosmelene. Like new $3500.00

I have an old 38 special that my father gave me. on the barrel is says ITALY on one side and 38 special on the other. the star that ejects the shells is wore out. I cant find any info. anywhere to buy a new "star" Is there anyone out there who can help me ???

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the Sig Saur is a poor excuse for a handgun. i recently fired my father's off at the range (the sig is the standard handgun for the sherriffs in Washington state) and i feel sorry that he's gotta carry it around all day. bulky grip, small calibur and a recoil NO 9mm should have makes this pistol annoying to try and fire. luckily he'll be upgrading to a Glock soon.