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March 22, 2004
Frank Discussions: John Derbyshire
When deciding who should be my second interview, the choice was obvious. John Derbyshire is a columnist, author, mathematician, uncredited thug, general curmudgeon, and one writer at National Review I wouldn't try and replace. He's decidedly as non-PC as they get, and often sports controversy because of it (he once put up a math problem about monkeys and it scared me). If you haven't been reading him, then catch up. Until then, read this interview Mr. Derbyshire graciously did over e-mail. Q. Your name Derbyshire comes from a county in England. Being that it's a combination of "derby" and "shire", one would guess that the place is filled with hobbits driving around in racecars. Is that about right?
A. Dunno. I was only in Derbyshire once, and the memory is dim. If the coin had come up the other way you'd be betting on the Kentucky Bunbury--did you know that? Q. So what's it like writing for National Review? Is it fun fun fun everyday, or is it your own private hell that you suffer with dignity and grace? A. A laff riot, except for those times they call you up and say: "Can you give us 1,000 words on energy policy by 4 o'clock?" That's when you try desperately to forget the combination code for the handgun safe. Q. You seem to court controversy a lot more than other writers at National Review (one of the quotes for your merchandise is about how you have some opinions that aren't "respectable"). Is that because you're more daring or because everyone else is a pansy? A. I think mostly it's just that I'm older http://www.olimu.com/Photographs/BackPages/1945-Baby.htm . Grew up in the age before PC. Never internalized the necessary restraints. The NR people have only recently weaned me off saying "Negro." Q. You bill yourself as a pessimist. Has there been anything in recent events that have made you feel cheery? A. Well, I cracked a smile when they found Saddam in that spider hole. Though if it'd been me that found him, I'd have lobbed a few grenades down there & then sealed it up with concrete. Or just sealed it up & saved the grenades. The last time I had a really good laugh at a public occurrence was when the Romanians shot Ceaucescu and his loathsome wife. I am smiling now just thinking of it. Q. How much longer do you think humanity will last? A. You misunderstand the nature of my pessimism. Humanity will always be around -- like roaches. Q. How do you think Bush is doing as president? A. All right. But I speak as a person who has very low expectations of politicians. Q. How much worse do you think Kerry would do? A. Very, very much. He'd be another Carter, spend four years apologizing to the world for our appalling inclination to defend our own interests & way of life. Unthinkable. Vote Bush! Q. Out of all the politicians and pundits out there, who you would you most want to slug if you could get away with it? A. Eleanor Clift. There's just something about that woman. I know, I know, a gentleman isn't supposed to hit a lady. But heck, they wanted equality, they got it. Come and take your lumps, Eleanor. Q. Andrew Sullivan seems to not like you, handing out Derbyshire Award Nominations in mockery of you. Any idea how that started? Like, did you run over his dog? A. My private theory is that he is trying to make himself sexually attractive to me in some way I don't really understand. I have had trouble with homosexuals all my life, I don't know why. They can be very persistent. Q. When he's finished handing out Derbyshire Award Nominations, will you be at the award ceremony to present the Derbyshire Award? A. I don't think so. I'd get flustered, having his eyes on me all the time. Q. I heard that you got Andrew Sullivan fired from the NY Times by spreading rumors that he is gay. Is there any truth to what I just made up? A. You seem to have some kind of obsession with Andrew Sullivan. Why is that? Q. It's now well known that you were an uncredited thug in a Bruce Lee movie. What exactly does a thug have to do to get credit? A. See?---Sullivan, Sullivan, Sullivan. I really think you have issues here. Q. Now that your fans made sure the Internet Movie Database credits you for your uncredited thuggery, do you feel vindicated? A. Say WHAT? Oh, "thuggery." Do you know, I paid $35 to that frigging movie database to get my picture included. They said it would take "about two weeks," but that was three weeks ago and I'm still looking at the generic shadow guy. I guess it's a ripoff. Most things are. Q. I've heard talk about making a new Bruce Lee movie where he is inserted using CGI. If this happens, would you consider reprising your role as uncredited thug? A. I would have, but Spielberg wants me in this new Riemann Hypothesis movie he's doing, so I'll have to beg off. Q. Have you ever been approached by a thug on the street who felt he just wasn't getting enough credit and said how inspirational you are? A. For God's sake lay off with the Sullivan thing, it's getting creepy. Q. I have about twenty more questions about uncredited thuggery, but I guess I should move on. How did you get from uncredited thug to credited writer and journalist? A. Same answer Fats Domino gave when asked how he got successful: "Clean thinkin', clean livin', an' good home cookin'." (You can put the terminal consonants back in if I've transgressed political correctness there. I never know.) Q. For National Review Online, Jonah Goldberg seems to get a lot of the attention. Do you ever feel like punching him? Be honest. A. By arrangement with the magazine, three times a year Jonah and I have one of those Russian face-slapping contests on a secluded beach out Nissequogue way -- feet planted, you know, just slap! slap! slap! till one of us falls down -- to get things out of our systems. The rest of the time we get on great. He cooks a mean quiche gaspesienne. Q. I'll kidnap his dog for a thousand bucks. Deal? A. In your dreams. I haven't seen a thousand bucks since I got married. Q. Last year, you published the book Prime Obsession about the Riemann Hypothesis. Now, my readers are a bit too dense for you to explain briefly that hypothesis (and that is what the book is supposed to do, anyway), but could you tell us what your favorite prime number is? A. That's a thing I can never make up my mind about. Some days I'd say 31 -- you know, the first prime number the decimal period of whose reciprocal is an odd number of digits in length. Also the 3rd Mersenne prime. Also one of only two known numbers that can be written in two ways as the sum of successive powers, starting with 1. (The other is 8191.) Then there's that business about the square being 961, which is the square of 13 (31 written backwards) written backwards. Also the two digits being the same as the first two digits of pi. AND, if you divide the first of those digits into the second to get one-third, and raise 31 to the power of one-third (i.e. take its cube root), you get 3.1413806523913930044930758964627499263, which differs from pi by less that 0.007 per cent!!! **AND** note that 31 is the 11th prime, 11 is the 5th prime, 5 is the 3rd prime, and 3 is the 2nd prime, and 11, 5, 3, and 2 are all primes!!!!!! (The next prime this works for is 127, the 31st prime, which is, like 31, a Mersenne prime!!!!!!!!!) Other days, however, I might say 5,127,402,762,693,207,238,127, Q. In NRO's The Corner, you claimed that Arthur C. Clarke sent you fan mail over Prime Obsession. I don't want to call you a liar, so I'll check my thesaurus... fabricator! Your response? A. That's **SIR** Arthur C. Clarke to you, Bubba: http://www.olimu.com/Riemann/Reviews/Clarke.htm Q. Do you think the number 2, being the only even prime, is a bit arrogant? I never liked it. A. Know what you mean. I've had a couple of run-ins with it myself. It was Papa Doc Duvalier's favorite number, though, and you better not argue with voodoo. Q. Here's a question I always have for people knowledgeable at math: why does the square root of negative one get to be a number, but my math teacher always yelled at me if I tried to divide one by zero? A. Beats my pair of jacks. Most likely your teacher had issues. Was he gay? Q. Combining your knowledge of math and politics, which of the two major parties is more like an integral and which is more like a differential? (show all your work for full credit) A. They are BOTH like integrals: but the Dem party is a Riemann-Stieltjes, while the GOP is more of a Lebesgue. Q. You wrote a novel, Seeing Calvin Coolidge in a Dream, about Chinese immigrants in the U.S. What inspired you to write that novel? A. Hanging around with Chinese immigrants in the U.S. Q. Have you thought about converting to Chinese? A. No. Q. With your knowledge about China, how much longer do you expect the Communist government to last? When (or if) China becomes a democracy, do you think they might be able to become richer and more powerful than American, because that scares me. A. Rest assured, they will never come up with anything half as good as the Twinkie. Q. With your three volume novel, Fire from the Sun, you went with P.O.D. (post-orgasmic depression) to get your novel available to the public. How has that worked out? A. All right. Twice a year I get a check from the POD people. It's a nice surprise. And God knows I need the money. Q. In closing, do you have a message for our nation's youth? A. Yes. I hate you all for having much more fun than I had, and for all your damn straight, white, perfect teeth. 55 Responses To "Frank Discussions: John Derbyshire"
Most of the numbers in that block aren't primes. Lazy. #1 - Posted by: keith taylor on March 22, 2004 07:28 AMKeith, I believe that block is ONE Prime... a single Godawful enormous Prime such as I never would wish to encounter in a dark alley. But Frank is the college graduate, I am just a cyborg. Ask him. #2 - Posted by: Mollbot on March 22, 2004 07:31 AMIt's one large prime, eediot (though I can't prove that). I forget how you ppove really large numbers are primes (that's important to public/private key encryption). I was right about telling him my readers are dense. #3 - Posted by: Frank J. on March 22, 2004 07:31 AMHey, I can't prove really large numbers are primes. Where does that put me? #5 - Posted by: Frank J. on March 22, 2004 07:46 AMIt's easy to prove a number is prime! Simply check to see if it is divisible by all the primes that are less than its square root. #6 - Posted by: Wacky Hermit on March 22, 2004 08:11 AMP.S. This even works for really large primes... although it takes quite a lot of computing power and time to (a) find all the primes less than the square root and (b) work out whether or not the big prime is divisible by them all. But it does work... eventually. #7 - Posted by: Wacky Hermit on March 22, 2004 08:13 AMJust code a simple Sieve of Eratosthenes (sp?) and let your PC handle it for a while. You may have to code a Humongous Number data type first. Frank, did you really ask him if he planned to convert to Chinese? You know the chinese don't allow that because of their population problem. They only accept new chineses when there's an opening, and even then children of those who are already members have first crack at it. Do your research next time. #8 - Posted by: LibertyBob on March 22, 2004 08:39 AMYou misunderstand the nature of my pessimism. Humanity will always be around -- like roaches. Tht is the single truest statement i have ever heard. Great, now i have someone else to read on a regular basis. #9 - Posted by: tommy on March 22, 2004 09:22 AMDude! That Derbyshire guy has outed you on NRO's corner. Now we know your real name. Probably it's a plot--he's in cahoots with that Goldberg guy. Now you're doomed to endless monkey ninja attacks. #10 - Posted by: on March 22, 2004 09:34 AMWe already knew his real name. He has mentioned it himself... and he linked to the local Fla. newspaper article mentioning him too, 'way back. #11 - Posted by: Mollbot on March 22, 2004 09:36 AM"A. My private theory is that he is trying to make himself sexually attractive to me in some way I don't really understand. I have had trouble with homosexuals all my life, I don't know why. They can be very persistent." You had better not interview him anymore Frank, people might see that he is truly funny and start reading him in droves, thereby leaving less time to help make you rich and famous. #12 - Posted by: Veeshir on March 22, 2004 09:40 AMHere's a good list of Derbyisms:
*** Is this any way for free people to live? *** Cry Havoc! And let slip the appropriate dogs. *** I don't see how you can ever have enough nukes. *** I do have some opinions that aren’t very respectable. *** Like any honest reactionary, I loathe the New York Times. *** For most people, college education is a waste of time and money. *** The ducks aren't ever going to line up. The ducks are trying to kill you. *** American society is increasingly a conspiracy of the smart against the dumb. *** Marriage is one of those things that works best when people don't think about it too much. *** The Middle East contains three hundred million people, and most of them are crazy as coots. *** Carve into your mind in great stone letters: This nation is the hope, and the conscience, of the world. *** Let's face it, in the great 20th-century struggle between the state and the individual, the state has won, game, set, and match. *** The fact is that political stupidity is a special kind of stupidity, not well correlated with intelligence, or with other varieties of stupidity. *** Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face there will be a well-heeled Western liberal to explain that the face does, after all, enjoy free health care and 100 percent literacy. *** I want to live among people who can read, write, give correct change and name the capital of their state. Beyond that, I think education is a luxury that people should pay for themselves. *** Stereotypes are, in fact, merely one aspect of the mind's ability to make generalizations, without which science and mathematics, not to mention much of everyday life, would be impossible. *** This is life. People stumble and grope blindly hither and thither, wondering if they did the right thing, occasionally knocking something over and hoping no-one noticed, striving for illusory goals, addled with guilt and insecurity. *** Look at our fool diplomats, poring over their treaties and resolutions and communiqués, while young men with burning eyes slip silently into our cities with boxes, canisters, cargoes, vials, and suitcases curiously heavy. Look at this proud tower! And feel its foundations tremble. *** Does it not occur to you...that by purging all sacred images, references, and words from our public life, you are leaving us with nothing but a cold temple presided over by the Goddess of Reason -- that counterfeit deity who, as history has proved time and time and time again, inspires no affection, retains no loyalties, soothes no grief, justifies no sacrifice, gives no comfort, extends no charity, displays no pity, and offers no hope, except to the tiny cliques of fanatical ideologues who tend her cold blue flame? John who? #14 - Posted by: Rob on March 22, 2004 10:13 AMAwesome interview! Thanks for posting it! #15 - Posted by: David F. on March 22, 2004 10:17 AMYou are now bookmarked, sir! #16 - Posted by: David F. on March 22, 2004 10:18 AMA prime interview. #17 - Posted by: aelfheld on March 22, 2004 10:19 AMThis site features a bear that poops prime numbers. I suppose you could just wait and see if that number ever comes out. http://members.surfeu.fi/kklaine/primebear.html Bears pooping primes is teh funny! #18 - Posted by: Lou on March 22, 2004 10:53 AM"Humanity will always be around -- like roaches." Wow. Empowering. I'm at a loss for words. #19 - Posted by: Haagus on March 22, 2004 11:15 AMNow I have to add another site to my daily visit list... #20 - Posted by: Marc on March 22, 2004 11:19 AMI don't know 'bout all that math stuff, but that was a GREAT interview!!! I'm howling!! That was better than the interview with the G-man! Brilliant! Derbyshire can dish it out and take it. I'll have to check him out. (Once I get back from the Grand Canyon, where I'm leaving to visit right now! bye!) #21 - Posted by: jonag on March 22, 2004 11:51 AMI think he protested too much about the homosexuality thing, if you know what I mean. #22 - Posted by: LibertyBob on March 22, 2004 12:16 PMI don't think Derb is gay. He may be English though, which would make it easy to misinterpret. #23 - Posted by: Sticky B on March 22, 2004 12:50 PMOh, come on, it's easy to prove it prime - divide it by every prime up to its square root. Mind you, the compute time on that might be a bit excessive, but anything is possible for the man who doesn't have to do it by long division. Seriously though, Fermat's Little Theorem is the first test if I recall my Classical Algebra class right, and there are a couple other ones after that that I don't remember. #24 - Posted by: Alsadius on March 22, 2004 01:31 PMAH! YES!! That interview Rocked!!! LOL! Oh, man, I need to go read his stuff. He's silly! I yikes him! #25 - Posted by: Jewels_Jungle on March 22, 2004 01:35 PMSee what I mean Frank? Look at all the people who are saying they need to check him out. that's one of the best and funniest interviews i've ever read, frank! you're so funny! that derby guy is funny too, but he's no frank. (wow, i'm such a kissup.) jonag -- i'm so envious! i want to go to the canyon! have fun. #27 - Posted by: sarahk on March 22, 2004 02:16 PMOh, man. When two extremely smart people get together and they both get it, it's TOTAL COMEDY. Thanks, Frank! #28 - Posted by: Curtis the Former Marine on March 22, 2004 02:31 PMMy favorite prime number is Q. #29 - Posted by: Tim E. on March 22, 2004 03:03 PMHmmm, the Derb has two kids, a wife, and a dog. Frank, to get ahead you are going to have get two wives, three kids, two dogs, and a cat. That way your prime number will be larger than his. #30 - Posted by: toad on March 22, 2004 03:04 PMYou can check to see if a number is prime by it's fat content. If it's less than 5% it is prime. Between 5% and 15% it's just USDA Choice. Anything more than that and it's in the School Lunch Program. #31 - Posted by: Former Hostage on March 22, 2004 03:31 PMWhoa, toad, Frank despises cats. Choose a different pet. By the way, Frank, absitively posolutely hilarious. #32 - Posted by: Liberal Beater on March 22, 2004 03:32 PMThat number isn't a prime!! It's divisible by three. SHENNANIGANS!! SHENNANIGANS!! #33 - Posted by: levendus on March 22, 2004 03:47 PMPeople, please. You don't test primality by trial division once you get past twenty digits or so. Fermat's Little Theorem is a probabilistic primality tester, and it fails for some numbers (numbers that fail are called Fermat pseudoprimes; numbers that unconditionally fail FLT for any base are called Carmichael numbers). Better probabilistic primality tests are the Miller-Rabin test and another one using the Frobenius endomorphism. For absolute (i.e. verifiable) primality testing the current best technique is the Elliptic Curve Method. Even this method takes a month or so on a 3 GHz machine tackling a 4500 digit number. Bearing in mind that the prime JD quoted is 39751 digits, proving it prime is going to take you a long time. Does this answer the question? #35 - Posted by: David Gillies on March 22, 2004 05:28 PMThe last digit is not even; that's always the first test. #36 - Posted by: Frank J. on March 22, 2004 05:31 PMawwww, I had my broom out for a good Shennanigans. #37 - Posted by: Monster Kabasue on March 22, 2004 05:47 PMBrooms aren't prime. Now crowbars, theys prime! #38 - Posted by: LibertyBob on March 22, 2004 05:52 PMWell I used the LDBII theorem and it's divisible by three. Derbyshire is trying to pull a fast one or else he just made up some large number. Get your brooms it's game on!!!!!!! #39 - Posted by: levendus on March 22, 2004 06:11 PMReally, I have a decided problem with seeing someone as funny, bright, and well-meaning as our beloved Frank J. wasting his time with an anti-Irish limey bigot like John Derbyshire. I've read a few of Derb's observations concerning Ireland - particularly the current conflict - which was a great education in Brit propaganda (although you can see the same in almost any American reporting about that subject). Derb knows just enough Irish history (e.g., British paratroopers massacred Irish civilians on Bloody Sunday) and is skillful enough in mixing in great dollops of untruth that Americans don't perceive what a line they've been handed. "The Londonderry Gambit" is classic Derbyshire. While admitting that Brits did kill a unarmed civilians in "Londonderry" in 1972, he passes it off as a reaction to provocation and posits that the big, bad IRA set the whole thing up as a propaganda ploy. Really, Derb? So how come your government has wasted the last several years interviewing scores of witnesses and pouring millions of pounds down a rathole to determine what happened in Derry on January 30, 1972 when all they had to do was listen to your stunning insights? Did the PIRA voodoo the paras to make them chase down and shoot unarmed men, women, and teenagers? The idea that the PIRA set up Bloody Sunday is as moonbatty as any of the weirdness on Indymedia or DU. And I REALLY loved his dragging in Gerry Adams - of course most people reading this blog don't know that Adams was nowhere near Derry that day - he lives in BELFAST. Sullivan doesn't like Derbyshire because he correctly considers him an extremist bigot. Some time ago Sullivan reposted Derb's retelling of a remark one of his Orange friends made on witnessing NYC's St. Pat's Day parade, i.e., "It's funny what you see when you don't have your gun." The "Catholics" over at The Corner pulled that one down DAMN fast. Frank J is politically incorrect; John Derbyshire is just a jerk. #41 - Posted by: Terry on March 22, 2004 09:17 PMGoddamn it, John, I told you to put that copy of Mathematica down. #42 - Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) on March 22, 2004 09:35 PMFrank, as this is a satirical site, it might be a good idea to make clearer that these interviews are in fact real. Terry, the only way John Derbyshire could be described as a "bigot" is by defining the word to mean any disagreement with those radical lobby groups which claim to speak for various popular minorities. This is, of course, a definition happily clung to by most liberals and their silly informal allies like Andrew Sullivan, none of whom show themselves capable of the sort of thought, balance and open-mindedness Derbyshire regularly displays. Quite how you can deny that your warped view of the Ulster situation is the one dominant in the American media baffles me. 'Bloody Sunday' in 1972 was just one freak event in thirty-five years of British troops defending the province from the anarchy and murder the IRA seek to bring simply because the majority there keep voting to stay British. The terrorists who murder mothers who comfort dying soldiers, who bombed entire cabinets and who mutilate any Catholic brave enough to stand up to them milk the moment for all it is worth because they know it was the only substantial lapse in all those decades that comes within a million miles of their own brutality. If you think the IRA is morally distinct from Al Qaeda in any way save the latter's greater efficiency in killing, you're really no better than an apologist for Hamas, ETA or whatever terror group you are willing to acknowledge needs opposing. If you believe saying any of this is anti-Irish, you really need to visit the country and see for yourself that the Irish are perfectly capable of distinguishing their country from the terrorist filth who blow up children in its name, and of condemning them as harshly as any other decent person. #43 - Posted by: truthunvarnished.com on March 23, 2004 02:25 AMI think that Ambrose Bierce said it best in The Devil's Dictionary: BIGOT, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain. #44 - Posted by: Mollbot on March 23, 2004 02:43 AMI thought a BIGOT was any overtime that was longer than 15 minutes? #45 - Posted by: Dave in Texas on March 23, 2004 10:28 AMDerb's worse than a bigot. He's a polygot. He's got books, kids, a dog, a movie career-- too much for one person. In Utopia, it'll be "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs", i.e. everyone a monogot. Girls'll get nuthin'. #46 - Posted by: Just Some Guy on March 23, 2004 12:38 PMOne of Derb's best quotes: on baseball and life. Not bad for an Englishman. (He admittedly despises soccer and has little use for cricket, as well.) "Baseball shows the essential features of human life in a very clear and simple way. You are presented with opportunities. Sometimes you created those opportunities yourself; sometimes they came your way by the efforts of others. Having spotted them, you have to turn them into successes. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't; and when you can't, it may be because you didn't give it enough in effort and spirit, or co-operate well enough with other people, or it may be because another person let you down, or it may be just dumb bad luck. Still, it's all about spotting those opportunities and trying your utter best to capitalize on them. The team that wins a baseball game is the one that made the best out of its opportunities. Just like life." One of my favorite columns by him: 'Bigot' is the old Allied code name for someone who knew parts of the D-Day invasion plans before they happened. So, depending upon his age, Derb could theoretically be a bigot. Merriam Webster Online says a bigot is "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices." That pretty much describes me. #49 - Posted by: Curtis the Former Marine on March 23, 2004 04:37 PMOrange friends? Were I in Derbyshire's position, I wouldn't be drawing too much attention to William of Orange. Nice interview, Frank. You're ready for prime time. #50 - Posted by: Eric Scheie on March 23, 2004 06:20 PMWell, Truth - may I call you "Truth"? - if you'll wipe the spittle from your lips and pay attention, I'll tell you some facts (which are, of course, the enemy of the "truth"). My "warped" views on Ireland come from 20 years of studying Irish history, talking to Irish people, and visiting the country. Your rants don't mean a damn thing, because you know NOTHING. While you're classifying everyone who points out the truth about the Brit occupation of Ireland as a Hamas-style terrorist from your position of (dubious) moral superiority, you might ponder that you live in a country where people start shootouts after being cut off on the freeway, and where a million unborn children are sucked into sinks each year. I wouldn't be so smug if I were you. #51 - Posted by: Terry on March 23, 2004 10:01 PMJust Some Guy: For true NRO corner readers the real questions aren't about the prime number, they're about the prime directive. It can get so bad there that they now have rules against starting threads about star trek. If you enjoyed this interview may I suggest Mr Derbyshire's weekly radio broadcast? It pops up on NRO and it's really funny. John delivers these scathing attacks with his deadpan Brittish accent. Just too funny #53 - Posted by: skip on July 21, 2004 05:19 PMWell, now. I'm certainly glad we've finally decided to let that whole Andrew Sullivan thing go and allow it to slink off into The Corner, which, btw, is an eternal blog party on the NRO site, at which Mr Derbyshire can quite often be spotted, usually wearing seersucker, white socks, and a straw boater, with rolled-up treehouse plans inadvertently sticking out of his back pocket. While hanging about The Corner, one might well learn tremendous amounts about the first ten-digit prime encountered in the decimal expansion of e, or badgers. (You'll have to ask Jonah Goldberg about the badgers, perhaps, but once you get him started....) One will NOT hear about the Prime Directive, and so far I've noticed little discussion of "I, Robot". Er, wait, I guess they do mention Kerry now and again. And what is it with the Dems and the cardboard candidates, anyway? Okay, okay, they've got good hair. Let's make Farrah Fawcett prez! #54 - Posted by: cato42 on July 21, 2004 08:00 PMGee, Terry, nice avoiding of the actual issue by pointing to claimed flaws on the part of another with no means of determining any genuine relationship. #55 - Posted by: Eric Pobirs on July 22, 2004 01:48 AMPost a comment
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