FIRST!!!! Ah ha! Finally!

Starship Trooper: The book was much, much better than the movie. Notice the Roger Young, the ship Rico sails in, is named after a real life Medal of Honor winner. And the idea of citizenship (and thus the ability to vote) being confired only on those willing to serve their country very much appeals to me. For those of you who haven't read the book, non-citizenship carried no stigma other then the inability to vote.

About the .9999999... vs. 1 debate: It's true! There's a debate in the mathematical community over whether .9999999... really does equal 1. In non-standard analysis, those are two separate numbers. There is also the argument that .9999999... is a process approaching 1 whereas 1 is an actual number. We recently had a bit of a debate about this in my math-ed discussion group.

The reason your teachers think .9999999... = 1 is that they have never been exposed to non-standard analysis. In fact, I'd be safe betting your math teacher has never been exposed to real analysis either. Something like 50% of math teachers in middle and high schools are teaching out-of-subject, i.e. they don't have any training specifically in math. I had a future math teacher in my calculus class this semester, and she'd never even heard before that .999999... equals 1, let alone that it might _not_ equal 1.

My advice to Mac Diddy: Don't call your teacher an idiot or a liar (in public). Just secretly major in math, take non-standard analysis classes, and then infiltrate the math teaching profession and spread the truth around.

Sigh...0.9999999... used to not equal one, but then it's feelings got hurt. Its just social promotion, really.

Pssh... .9 repeating does not equals one. It equals 1 minus 1 to the negative infinity.

Ahhhh, Starship Troopers. That's one of my favorite books. I even referenced it in the introduction of my dissertation. Unfortunately, everytime someone mentions the movie I have to fight down the urge to hunt down Paul Verhoeven and slap him around while yelling "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING".

--The actual quote is, "Come on, you SOB's!! Do you want to live forever?"

--It was spoken by Gunnery Sergeant Dan Daly, U.S.M.C. at the battle of Belleau Wood in June of 1918 (WWI). He was a Marine who won the Medal of Honor on two separate occasions.

--By the way, this battle was when the Marines earned our nickname ("Devil Dogs").

--'Nother by the way, WWI was the first time we saved the entire nation of France from destruction/occupation. WHY DID WE DO THIS?????

OORAH DEVIL DOG!

the bag is gone... apparently, someone kept stealing the donated CDs out of the bag...

--Semper Fi, Tuefel Hunden... I like your name much better... it has the air of authenticity.

--For those who care: "Tuefel Hunden" is how the Germans referred to U.S. Marines. It means "hell hounds" and/or "devil dogs". As in: "They fight like tuefel hunden!"

The problem with Paul Verhoeven is that he tried to take the book and make it into anti-war movie and it just doesn't work. This is because the ideas for society expressed in the book and touched in the movie are most things that even if you didn't like them, you would have a hard time disagreeing with.

RE: The Halliburton Hippie Question:

The last I checked, in most educated parts of the country (i.e., the South), "becuase he needed killin'" is still a valid defense. Feel free to mow them down next time, though if the crowd of Hippies gets larger, you might want to upgrade to a F-350 with a 6.0L PowerStroke for more torque. Always use the right tool for the job.

If 0.999999999..... approaches 1, what does an infinite number of 9mm's approach?

Bob Owens:

And since it's a Ford, you won't mind if it gets impounded for a few months as evidence.

/ford cheap shot

Sticky B:

An infinite number of 9mm's approaches .45

Dr. J,
That considers the caliber of the infinity.

Everyone should follow Frank's example and read Starship Troopers, not see the movie. I'm not sure I'd say Verhoeven's film was "an attempt at an anti-war movie", but it sure didn't capture the important elements of the book. I think it was just cheap, schlocky sci-fi ... an attempt to cash in on the teenage male movie market.

Heinlien's book Starship Troopers isn't really about war with aliens; yes, the bug war provides the backdrop, but the subject of the work is philosophy and politics. Libertarianism, the concepts of Duty and Loyalty, and the idea of struggle as a driving force are all central themes in the work. If you only read one sci-fi book in your life, Starship Troopers should be it.

My opinion on Heinlien has always been that he was a mediocre fiction writer but an outstanding philosopher. Troopers and another of his books, Time Enough for Love, played a big part in turning me from a liberal into a libertarian.

S

The movie was crapola (Starship Troopers) and missed the important points of the book.

I suggest also reading "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress."

Read all that Heinlein stuff as a kid, and now I'm a healthy adult Liberpublican!

Whatever message was meant to be in the movie Starship Troopers was lost on most people. I, like many other, just enjoyed as a film where bugs got splattered.

Oh, don't get me wrong; I love splattering bugs. In fact, Verhoeven's flick has been playing on FX this week and I watched it all the way through on Sunday evening. I'm as big a sucker for effects movies as the next guy.

It's not about hating the movie, it's about loving the book; I take any chance I can to make sure people know that the two are quite different.

S

Two comments:

1) At the Artillery School at Ft. Sill, anything over 0.5 is rounded up to the next whole number. We do that in school to benefit the student's grade average -- they usually need all the help they can get.

2) The movie "Starship Trooper" was one of the worst movies ever made. The novel by Robert Heinlein was one of the best science fiction novels ver written. I can be read on two levels - either as a bug-stomping adventure story or as a social/government commentary. Dump the movie, but treasure the novel and re-read it on a regular basis.

Starship Troopers is still one of my favorite movies. I just happen come across the fact that they made a sequel that is going straight to video on June 1. There ought to be law.
http://www.starshiptroopers2.net/ie/

Roger Maj Mike. The copy I have I bought second hand in the late '70s (I think) and I still have that same (well worn) copy on my book shelf at home.

Although I am an evil warmongering conservative republican fundamentalist, the problem with veterans per se being the only ones with the franchise is that it demands frequent or constant wars. Else you end up with a generation where noone can elect anyone to anything.

Or am I missing some alternative thing in the book that noone mentions when they discuss it?

As my brother mentioned, I told him to read Starship Troopers. I do like the movie also, but I keep it separate from the book. Henlien wrote about Starship troopers and some aspects of the government in a few essays, but I think this: http://www.kentaurus.com/troopers.htm is the best resource on the book, and the movie, and thier differences. It goes heavily into the misconceptions of ST, such as what makes a veteran.
Just qucikly, RAH only said that 10 percent were actully in what we considered the military. The rest were more civil service like in the book. Also, when we use the term veteran, we also apply it to a 'veteran school teacher', veteran police officer, and so on. Just as the book and movie said, its a term of service, not necessarily military.

Semper fi
Joe F.
C. 'co' 4th Tanks

Dave - There'll always be wars, not as a result of some scheme of a controlling cabal, but because we are humans.

Robert Heinlein said - "...the generation that 'studies war no more' will be that species' last generation." Meaning that some other species will wipe out them out.

Heinlein also wrote that , "...the meek shall inherit the Earth, in small plots about 3' by 6' by 6' deep."

Prey for peace, but prepare for war.

Thanks, Frank!

I appreciate the answer and the advice. I like the whole standing up for the truth thing, but I don't know if I have the moxie to call my teacher a liar and walk out the door, because she is exceptionally large and mannish, almost gorilla-like, and could easily kill me.

Wacky Hermit, I really like the whole ninja-style infiltration of the school system thing, but then I'd have to teach a bunch of smart-aleck teenagers who get their math advice from some right wing blogger with a vendetta against monkeys (No offense, Frank).

- Try this simple experiment:
1 / 9 = 0.111...
2 / 9 = 0.222...
3 / 9 = 0.333...
4 / 9 = 0.444...
5 / 9 = 0.555...
6 / 9 = 0.666...
7 / 9 = 0.777...
8 / 9 = 0.888...
9 / 9 = ?

- Starship Troopers is an excellent book. The merits and flaws of Heinlein's government have been considerably debated. ST might have had some value as a movie had Denise Richards removed her top. That might have overshadowed her atrocious acting.

- "Prey for peace" MAJ Mike? I'll let you guys do the hunting, I'll just pray. :-)

I like "Frank Answers". It's my favorite feature of the blog, Frank.

Of course I also like folk music, and I used to own a Gremlin.

Sony Corporation bought the Starship Troopers rights and produced three seasons of a computer animated series entitled "Roughnecks: Starship Troopers" It was made for tween to adults. The animation is pretty good and the animators went out of their way to make things look real (scraped paint, duct tape, troopers wincing at incoming, even one screaming as he get's dropped from the dropship and is engulfed in a fireball).

The series has been put on 6 DVDs. I bought one because I enjoyed the animation and watched it with my 9 year old son. He got soooooooo into it! He played MI Trooper at school for the next week. He also kept asking me all these questions about the troopers. I finally told him that the series was good but not like the book. He made me go dig out my copy from the bowels of our basement and we read it together so that I could explain some of the finer points to him.
My lil' facist makes me sooooo proud!

You are all idiots. Well, not all of you, just the ones who don't have a mathematical clue.

1=0.999... BECAUSE:

there is no possible number between them. Therefore they are the same number.

beo:
exactly. just as John Kerry=French-loving communist muckadoo. same reason.

Least we forget:

History and Moral Philosophy

Greywolf:
Yeah, uh... right. More History and that Moral Philo, Philly, well, you know what i'm trying to say.But I think you ought to know that what I say is'nt what I mean.

Opps!! Sorry! Meant "pray" not "prey". I don't proof my rants the way I should. Been a long academic year and the kids are taking their final exams.

Brian T in Dallas,

where are these damn hippies? i too live in dallas and i've got a nice big dodge and a new grill guard i wanna test out. hittin other cars who drive slow in the fast lane is gettin boring.

The idea of service=voting is not a new one, I believe the concept started in Sparta. And as a veteran, and a voter, I believe we in America should adopt this concept. It would probaly keep the sniveling-pinko-Dementocrats from being eligible from voting because their idea of serving is self-serving, which we get them only as far as their screeching will travel.

i.e.: The best way to handle idiot Hippies is to:
1. Threaten their Trust funds
2. Make fun of their clothing (that will send them into a tither and running in circles foaming at the mouth
3. If you REALLY want to have them leave you alone, tell them that there is an endangered rabbit being threatened by a big nasty developer over on the other side of town. That should get them off your back for a while.

"Pease through Superior Firepower"

.9999999 = 1, This is just pure laziness. I would OK for doing your taxes, or for selling gasoline, but in pure mathmatics, NO WAY Hoser! In any case if .99999 was = 1 then, it wouldn't be .99999 it would be 1 !! There would be no .999999, we would go from .9999998 to 1. I don't think so. That is why there is a .99999, to have something between .999999998 and 1. Thus according to my logic .999999 in Not equal 1 !! They also look different.

PUBLIC EDUCATION.... *shakes head* SHEEESH!

I learned (in my public high school) that .9999999... (henceforth called "bar" 9, which in correct mathematical circles indicates that it's written as .9999 with a bar over the last 9 (I think it's 4... it might be more) is, in fact NOT equal to 1. For all intents and purposes, outside of MATHEMATICAL THEORISTS, it is the same, since (as previously stated) there is no number between them AND there is no specific need to differentiate. HOWEVER, they are not the same number. period.

Oh, and Nick... your "simple experiment" will fail every time, since the mathematical rule is that a number divided by itself is always=1 (try it with 8/8 or 3/3....), it's completely unrelated to the discussion at hand.

bar 9!

Thanks for the help Frank and loyal republicans. I didn't think my question would generate this much debate but I'm relieved because my entire math class agreed that I was completely, undeniably insane and no one talks to me anymore, including my math teacher who never calls on me when I raise my hand because he is afraid of what crazy math conspiracies I am going to waste the classes time with now but it's to be expected because they're all filthy democrats and don't understand the concept of actualy being liberal or conservative. Go figure. Anyway, if anyone wants to e-mail me about the matter they are free to do so at Aviva1313@hotmail.com or AIM me at whatxisxpi (you can tell I'm obsessed with math) and I'd be delighted to hear your thoughts abou tthe subject or rant about democrats. Much thanks - Sarah (Mac Diddy)

This is disturbing: "There is a Halliburton plant near my house and when I drive to the gun store I see these turds."

Is Brian T. blaming Halliburton for the poor sanitation at his gun store of choice? I mean, they are pretty much responsible for everything from the War in Iraq to the extinction of the dinosaurs, but turds next to the .22s? If he really wanted to make that point, he should have followed the official "How to Blame Halliburton" guide on the DNC Homepage. Heck, you just have to fill in the blanks: "Haliburton (sic) is responsible for_____________." "We all know that _________ is bad." "If Haliburton (sic) can take care of ________ in Iraq, why doesn't George Bush spontaneously combust?"

I mean, c'mon Brian. USE THA FREAKIN' FORM! How else can we influence Gaia to make Bushate spontaneously combust if we don't stick to the form?

The correct statement of the 0.99999... = 1 statement has to be in terms of the limit. Whereas it is incorrect to formally state 0.999999 = 1 it is correct to say that lim [n-> Infinity] 1 - 10^n = 1

Also 8+1 = 10 for sufficiently large values of 8.

mt in Big D:
i believe he is talking about the demonstrators the Halliburton building on Belt Line between, i think, midway and josey, or thereabouts. they stand out there, usually on friday, with their freaking signs and stink up the whole side of town. feel free to give them a close look at the grill of your dodge, but be prepared to wipe hippie stinkum off your automobile afterwards. what a bunch of sorry-ass losers they are, too. They wouldn't last two minutes in west texas.

Pat Rand:
See above note. better stay away from that dnc homepage, i hear they send all visitor id's to clinton headquarters for review and possible punishment.

Nick:
I understand what you are trying to say, but keep in mind that I stipulate that .9999... is an irrational number; therefore, it cannot be expressed as a fraction, rendering your point moot.

Beo:
In real sentences, we follow the word "because" with a dependent clause, such as:
1 does NOT equal 0.999... because Frank J. says so!

Mr. Minority and Jim:
Thanks for your support in this numerical identity crisis.

Sarah:
How dare you try to masquerade as me! You are not me!

David Gillies:
Huh?

Mac Diddy, .999999.... has to be rational. There's a theorem that says that all repeating decimals are rational numbers (and that all rational numbers have repeating or terminating decimal representations).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal#Decimal_representation_of_other_rational_numbers

Argh... You're just trying to bait me, aren't you?

.9999... does equal 1. The reason I think people continually have problems with this issue lies with how they conceptualize infinity. We tend to think of infinity in the back of our minds as a really, really big number. But even really really big numbers are finite, and that trips us up in situations like this. The number .333 with a zillion threes is infinitesmally less than 1/3, but .333... repeated infinitely is 1/3.

This issue is dealt with here and here. They even provide calculus solutions for those skeptical of the ones already provided.

If you're not mathmatically inclined, you can ponder Xeno's
paradoxes. His problems deal with sequences like this, but obviously motion does exist, the runner will catch up to the tortoise, so it's safe to assume the sequences will converge. They were paradoxes for Xeno because the math to deal with them wouldn't be invented for a another couple thousand years.

While I'm at it, here's another way to show it:

   1.0000000....
  - .9999999....
  --------------
   0.0000000....

Now, you may be thinking a 1 is eventually going to appear at the end of all those zeroes in the result, and it would if .999... was finite. But since .999... is an infinite sequence, the zeroes go on forever.

Mikey,

Don't bother if your reply is that lame.

Devil Dog,
The Marine quote:
"Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever?"
Sergeant Major Daniel J. Daly, United States Marine Corps
Near Lucy-le-Bocage as he led the 5th Marine Regiment in an attack into Belleau Wood, France; 6 June 1918
Twice awarded the Medal of Honor: Boxer Rebellion; China; 14 August 1900 & Haiti; 17 November 1915
More Jar Head quotes Here

Re: AOL CDs

I also ask people for donations of their AOL CDs. In fact, I go so far as to pick up handfulls of them on every trip to Wally World or the PO.
They make EXCELLENT targets! Remember when they were bright yellow? I made the mistake of telling someone in AOL marketing that I really loved the color as it stood out very well at 100 yards. They changed the color very soon thereafter.
I find that the impact of a .44Mag 240gr JHP shatters them very well. As do most rifle calibers. .22s are kind of disappointing as they just make little holes.
1gewehr

Wacky Hermit:
I'm aware of the theorem, but that's just what it is: a theorem. Basically, rational numbers are in fact ones that can be represented as fractions, and .999..., so far as I know, cannot be a fraction. The repeating number theorem is not a law, and it can be disproved if you find a counter example. If .999... can't be a fraction, it can't be rational, and thus far, I haven't found the fraction.

Ron Copeland:
I get your point, but here's mine. I see infinity more as a function and a concept than anything actual and concrete. In this case, .999... and .333... never terminate, because we have an imperfect number system and we can't represent that extra little part, and that's why the numbers have to continue forever.
You can go forever and ever and ever, but you'll never really get there.

I haven't seen any hippies hanging around at the Haliburton yards in Midland or Odessa lately. Some of their hired hands may smell a little hippie-ish though due to being out in the field on 72hour frac jobs.

Heard a rumor last week that Key Energy Resourses was gonna buy out Haliburton anyway.

Sticky B:
If you want some Hippies to beat on, come on down here to Austin, we gots lots of them, in fact too many. All they do is cause problems like holding up developements to save some bug, bird or fish bait salamander. They are starting to get in the way, so please take some off our hands. You can do anything you want with them, just don't let them come back!!

PS: I use to be a real Hippie in the 60s & early 70s (free drugs & sex) until I went to collage, got a job, & started paying taxes. Now I am a good Liberpublican and see them as RoadKill that gets in your way and makes a mess on your truck if you run over them.

"Peace thru Superior Firepower"

Ron,
.999999... and 1 Will Not converge! Somewhere down that infinite road, there is that small ....1 out there that keep .9999... and 1 apart, thus .9999... and 1 Are NOT equal.

Has anyone tried sharpening the edges of those junk CD's and using them as weapons against hippies and monkeys (hard to tell the difference sometimes, except the monkeys are smarter and smell better)?

They work well against watermelons. Watermelons are a treacherous fruit.

"Visualize whirreled peas!!"

Thanks for the offer but I'll pass on the hippie importation scheme. I've always thought that Austin would be a great place to live except for all of the damned liberals. Might have to live in Gtown or RRock or even Burnet if I get down that way.

Sticky B
hippies are everywhere, they just disguise themselves to look different. in odessa or midland, they have to look ordinary, wear a hard hat and work boots. but look at the hard hat, there will be a "Save the whales" or "Save the monkeys" decal on it somewhere.
very few people who visit imao will know what a "frac job" is, or for that matter, probably care. too bad, because nothing works to relax you like a good frac job. unless, of course, you spend some time on a work-over unit, and stack some joints for an hour or so. pulling a pump from 6,000 feet is so much fun!
Mr Minority:
Could you run up here to Dallas and go by the Halliburton plant with your pickumup truck, gather up a load and take them to odessa? sticky b sounds like he could use them out there. sorry bastards don't have a ride themselves, they spend all their money on signs that say "Blood for Oil"

Mikey,
If I drag a bunch of Hippies from Dallas to Odessa there might not be enough usable parts left over to get something out of them, except maybe grindin' the parts up for low visc drillin' mud. Hey, what a great idea, then it really would be Blood for Oil !!! Nah, if you used them mud, then the pipe could only rotate to the Left.

Dear oh dear, Mac Diddy. If you can't define 'infimum limit' or don't know off the top of your head what the set of affinely extended real numbers is then you really shouldn't be spouting off about the mathematics of infinitesimals in a public sphere, lest you make yourself look silly. Do you understand why sin x/x = 1 for x = 0, even though sin 0 = 0? Limits, dear boy, limits (and L'Hôpital's rule).

And if you don't recognise the provenance of the 'sufficiently large values of' joke then you definitely shouldn't be making pronunciamentos about maths.

"Save the whales !?!" I thought it was "Shave the whales!?!"

No No, it's "Nuke the Whales, Save the Plankton" or is it "Club a Baby Seal, Save the Fish" ? Oh, I don't remember, but I think both are good causes

"Do You Apes Want to Live Forever?"

In the Columbia Dictionary of Quotations, the original version of this quote is attributed to Frederick the Great of Prussia, at the Battle of Kolin, 1757 (http://www.bartleby.com/66/18/23018.html):

"Hunde! Wollt' Ihr ewig leben?" "Dogs! Would you live forever?"

However, as Heinlein himself points out, the original was probably uttered by some grizzled noncom before the walls of Troy...

0.99999999 + 0.99999999 = 1.99999999
1.99999999 - 0.99999999 = 1

.: 0.99999999 = 1

David,
No No No .99999... + .99999... = 1.99999...8 (there is an 8 somewhere out there at the end) and so, 1.99999...8 - .99999... = .99999...
.: .99999... > 1

Wrong-O, you get a slap on the knuckles with a ruler, and sent to your room with no CNN tonight.

No there is no 8. The 9's are infinite. That's the whole point.

If you`re a purist .999999 and so on, never equals 1.
If you`re a statistician .9 equals 1.
So it`s really a matter of perspective.
Who is right depends on who you ask.

The Haliburton plant is at the intersection of Webb Chapel and Beltline in Carolton. And I was on the way to S.P.S. Guns to pick up my brand new Colt 1911A1 in 38super.

Oh, by the way, I used a law enforcement jumbo sized can of pepper spray. It looks like a lil' fire extiguisher. I call it my hippy extinguisher and have purchased 5 of them since that hippy vs. me battle.

Rather late, but here's what my MIT educated mathematics Ph.D. professor says about the .9999... = 1 argument. They are the same, becuase they are defined to be the same. No way around a definition. Some of you feel that .9999... never quite gets to 1, but then it never quite gets to an infinite string of 9 either. Here's another argument.

Let x = .9999999...
so 10x = 9.99999999...

10x - x = 9x
and 9.999999 - .999999 = 9
so 9x = 9
therefore x = 1

Q.E.D. Sorry, nonbelievers.

Who is this other mac daddy person who is telling me I am not them, no I am not you but I was the one who asked Frank that question so I get to respond to the comments as such person. You are not me!

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10x -x does not equal 9x
10x - x = 9
9x = 8.99999_
9 does not = 8.99999_
So 10x - x does not = 9x
Therefore 9x does not = 9
Therein x still equals .99999999

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