Always first.

Sorry, I've already posted this elsewhere, but I think it's pertinent to the example you gave, so I want to stick it on here again:

If a nation of people who think the US is too powerful choose to endorse John Kerry as president of the US...

Hmm... let's think about that a little, shall we?

Doesn't anyone else see the problem here? Our foreign enemies (France, Germany, North Korea, Iran, terrorists, half the population of Britain, etc.) think the US is too powerful. They can't compete with our strength, so they want to undermine it. They want a weaker US. So by endorsing John Kerry, they're acknowledging that a.) Kerry doesn't have America's best interests at heart, b.) Bush will make America stronger, but Kerry will make America weaker, and subsequently, c.) a Kerry presidency will advantageous to our enemies and detrimental to America. I guess a, b, and c are really all the same thing.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! Even the foreigners who HATE America freely admit (in a roundabout way) that Bush will benefit America the most! The reason they hate Bush is because he's looking out for America's interests, and the one thing they can't stand is the fact that America is prosperous and strong. Let's keep America that way. Vote Bush!

I'd love to research, BUT I'm too lazy.

Here are a few:

"And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people."

"I would not be pleased to see someone burning the flag because I love the flag, but the Constitution that I fought for preserves the right of free expression."

"Well, God will --look, I think--I believe in God, but I don't believe, the way President Bush does, in invoking it all the time in that way."

"I’m a hunter and I believe in the Second Amendment but I’ve never gone hunting with an AK-47."

Not the same thing, but I love this quote here, on John Kerry's own homepage:

Wade asks Kerry, "Sir, have you ever considered getting a bigger car?" Kerry shoots back, "No, but I have thought about cutting all your f***ing legs off at the knees."

Wow. What a great guy. And he's not ashamed of a comment like that, because it's on HIS OWN STINKIN' CAMPAIGN WEBSITE.

The perfect example is the abortion issue.

KERRY: I am a devoted catholic...I have always hated abortion...Life begins at conception...BUT I will always fight for a womans right to choose.

BUSH: I beleive in a womans right to choose, BUT i do not beleive in her right to choose to commit murder to cover up past choices.

I want a new bumber sticker, that says...
PREGNANT!?
YOU MADE YOUR CHOICE!!

Adam

"As president, I will do whatever it takes, as long as it takes, to defeat our enemies, but billions of people around the world yearning for a better life are open to America’s ideals."

"The President often says that in a post 9-11 world, we can’t hesitate to act - I agree, but we should not act just for the sake of acting."

"The strength of our country is vital but so is the character of our country." (Hmm... your point is...?)

"I know we have to be resolute in confronting the evil that exists in the world, but in the end, one of our greatest strengths, one of our greatest safeguards, is that America can be the ideal that inspires others everywhere."

"We will trade, and we will compete in the world, but our plan calls for a fair playing field."

"Regime change has been an American policy under the Clinton administration, and it is the current policy. I support the policy. But regime change in and of itself is not sufficient justification for going to war..."

"The United States, without question, has the military power to enter this conflict unilaterally. But we do need friends."

"The United Nations never has veto power over any measure the United States needs to take to protect our national security. But it is in our interest to try to act with our allies, if at all possible."

Bush: "I may talk funny BUT Kerry's still a goober!"*

Kerry: "I may be a goober, BUT Bush still talks funny!"*

*Not a real quote. But who cares?

"I believe President Bush and I both love our country equally. But we just have a different set of convictions about how you make America safe."

"I'll never give a veto to any country over our security. But I also know how to lead those alliances."

"You rely on good military people to execute the military component of the strategy, but winning the peace is larger than just the military component."

"I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace."

"I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard."

"I want a new bumber sticker, that says...
PREGNANT!?
YOU MADE YOUR CHOICE!!"

YEAH! But make it more clear even...

PREGNANT?
YOU MADE YOUR CHOICE!!
EVEN IF YOU WERE GANG RAPED!
SORRY, BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE FINAL SAY ABOUT WHAT GOES ON WITH YOUR BODY.
ADAM IN UTAH DOES!

Guess that would be a big bumper sticker though.

"I think Bill Clinton wants to Campaign for me BUT he just had heart surgry"
Kerry

"I think Tricky Willie wants to Campaign for a Democrat but he thinks your a goober too."
Bush

*Again not real quotes

I wrote an article on my blog, joeeveryday.blogspot.com, on how to sound intelligent by using the word BUT. It is a fantastic word for the contrarian, and being an contrarian is all you need to sound smart. I support going to war with Iraq, BUT, only if it is done the right way. etc etc etc.

Chris, that is the fundemental difference. You see the child as part of the mothers body, we see the child as his own body which is located inside the mother's.

If a 30 week gestational baby has it's skull crushed while in the womb, it's called abortion. If that same 30 week gestational baby is taken out of the mother by c-section and then had it's skull crushed it would be called murder. The only difference is location.

If the argument is that the gang raped mother didn't get a choice in creating that life therefor she has the right to kill it: I didn't get a choice in the creation of your life -- now where are those giant pliers again.

Bush: I want peace, but I want dead terrorists.

Kerry: I want dead terrorists, but I want peace.

Abortion is an important issue, BUT arguing about abortion doesn't make me laugh.

What's with all of this serious political debate going on here?

Get back to calling John Kerry a Goober!!

Bush: Frank beat SarahK at Trivial Pursuit BUT SarahK is smarter than Frank.

Kerry: SarahK is smarter than Frank BUT everyone is smarter than me.

do i have the right idea?

how about...

Bush: I went to the fridge BUT there was no food.

Kerry: There was no food BUT i sent Jeeves to the store.

Chris -
According to THe Alan Guttmacher Institute, which is affiliated with Planned Parenthood, 49% of pregnancies in the US are unintended. Half of those are aborted. Of the women who are having abortions, 48% have had a previous abortion. Of the women having abortions 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with their lives in one way or another. 2/3 say they can not afford a baby, and 1/2 don't want to be single parents or are having trouble with their spouse or partner. Less than 1 percent of abortions are due to rape or incest.

I have few hot buttons. This is one of them. I see a baby as a human life, no matter if it's still in the womb or just born.

JP

Kerry: My wife, Terezah is my life partner, but she speaks her mind.

Bush: My wife, Laura is my bud, but your wife is an flaming whore- bag ass; goober.

Everyone got it wrong, I win by default.
It has to be: a but b Versus b but a. A and B must be the same for each. Try again people!

Bush: I want peace, but I want dead terrorists.

Kerry: I want dead terrorists, but I want peace.

Getum' JP!!!

but mine are funnier the way i wrote them, Bob.

I think Kerry's more of a but man than Bush. LOL

JP and Masked Menace

As a father of three, two of whom died during complications of the pregnancy, one of which I held in my hands after he was delivered and watched him try to breathe while the doctors said they could not do anything so my wife and I just held him until he died, I know better than most the value of life, even before birth. I, personally, am opposed to abortion as a means of birth control. Our complications have left my wife and I unable to have more children and we flounder in the interminal waiting lines waiting to adopt, bombarded by international agencies ready to help us get a Russian or chinese child for a mere $30,000. There are plenty of us out here to readily adopt any and all of the children that might be available.

But it is possible, even proper, for a society to be opposed to a certain activity without making it illegal. There are powers that do not belong to the government. What you believe, or I believe, is irrelevant. We can teach our kids our beliefs, we can write books and publish papers about our beliefs, we can set up shelters and counselling centers to give women alternatives to abortion. These things are good. Passing a law is not. The government should not have that kind of power.

Who out there is truly impressed with the way the government is handling the power it has now? You want to give them the final say about your pregnancy? This is the same government that, in New Mexico, said hospitals have to provide kidney dialysis treatments to illegals that snuck across the border with no ability to pay but do NOT have to provide such services to AMERICANS with no ability to pay. You want to make the government the moral authority?

No gang, our forefathers understood that you cannot legislate morality. It does not work. You turn around and suddenly new people that do not share your morals are in office and legally allowed to use the power you gave up years earlier when it seemed like a "good thing to do."

My point to Adam was simple. There are always exceptions to create moral dillemmas to stimy even the best of us. That is why the government should not have that power.

People need to quit being so quick to say "there ought to be a law..." we have plenty of laws now. Somethings simply should not be in the governments control, even if it creates room for things we find to be horrible. If you do not like the number of abortions in this country, you go out and do something about it, but don't advocate making the government all powerful.

Don't think that saying "that should be illegal" is valuable in any way. It is dangerous. Most civilizations that started down that road are no longer free to tell you how it all worked out.

Chris,

Sorry about your children, and thank you for your insight, BUT abortion still makes me sick to my stomach.

My daughter came into the world when I was 21. I was working 2 part-time jobs and could hardly take care of myself and her mother. But the idea of abortion was never even mentioned between us. Sure, we had friends and family suggesting it (much to my dismay), but we knew that we had a child coming, and we did everything we had to do to make a life for her. Things got tough. Then they got tougher. But I live to give my daughter the life she deserves…to remind her every day that she is loved. I wouldn’t trade anything in the world for my daughter’s hug and smile.

Good luck with the adoption. I’ll be praying for you.

Thanks Mr. Bubble,

And it makes my stomach turn as well, trust me. When this 'Anne' woman in NYC did her story about how she was pregnant with triplets and decided that she did not want an instant 3 child family because it would mean should have to start shopping at COSCO so she had 2 of them "selectively aborted" I was horrified. In my book that was murder, plain and simple. I was ready to string her up myself. It is frightening how angry such an an act makes me even after all these months.

But that does not mean that the government should be given the power here. There can be too many situations that arise that challenge such laws. And maybe you Mr. Bubbles, and I and JP and Masked could sit down and look at the facts and make a rational judgement about each situation.

But it won't be us making those judgements. It will be every goofball congressman, judge, DA in office now or ever elected in the future. And they will make the calls all by themselves. And I promis you that before it is over, they will make a judgement the rest of us don't agree with, but it will be too late, the power will already be forfeit.

No, we have to accept that somethings can be against the moral principals that we hold or that our society holds, but not subject to legal prohibition.

Chris and Mr. Bubble We would like peace in the forum BUT you want to give us a piece of your minds

:( Adam started it!

Chris,
The smaller-government/civil liberty claims you're making are specious. There are some basic powers that a government must have, and we all agree one of them is the power to prosecute in the case of murder. Is murder a legislation of morality? It may be, but I think that all of us are all for it anyways.

As you said yourself, you identify (certain) instances of abortion with murder. An unborn child is undeniably human, and undeniably alive. Abortion is undeniably the killing of a human life. We can get into arguments about viability or personhood, but since when has our definition of murder included these terms? Since 1973, I guess.

No matter how small we want our government to be, protection of basic rights must be one of its powers. If abortion is murder -- and I don't understand how this can be denied -- government must have jurisdiction. Your outlying exceptions do nothing to change this fact; check out the logical fallacy of accident. The prosecution of murder is viable and necessary, even with the exceptions of self defense, insanity, negligence, and I'm certain there are others.

Sorry for the continued thread hijacking, guys. Abortion is my hot-button issue, also, and I can't let Chris's statements stand unopposed.

Perhaps Planned Parenthood should do more for its namesake, like help plan parenthood, instead of help end it. There are organizations and plans out there to help people and provide alternatives to abortion...they just aren't as noticed. And some people may hesitate to go to them because they are A) Afraid that they’ll be judged, and B) Those organizations tend to be linked to Churches. (Church is nothing to be afraid of, but that’s an argument for another time.)

And now, I’m going to invoke the name of Ronald Reagan. His take on abortion was that it is wrong, except in cases of self-defense. Example: The unborn child threatens the mother’s life. This is already, and has been for a while, a practice that hospitals use. And this is a concept that I can understand. What I don’t understand is how anyone can use abortion as a form of birth control. Perhaps they want to put an end to unwanted crack- babies. I may be stereotyping here, but wouldn’t the crack-mommy want more crack-babies so she can collect more crack-welfare?

JP’s study doesn’t mention this directly, but I’m willing to bet that the majority of girls that get abortions are WASPs between the ages of 15 and 25, who just weren’t using protection.

Now I’m going back to Chris’s point – You’re right that we can’t just trust our government to legislate morals. And we don’t want our government making all of the decisions for us. (I live in Jersey, and I’m painfully aware of what a corrupt government can do.)

There are certain principals I wish we could go back to. This was a Country founded on good morals. One Nation Under God. BUT if we’re not under God, what are we under?

Thanks for the defense guys. Chris, I respect your position for "choice" more than any I have yet to hear...

But, i think that is exactly the most important area the government is needed to regulate. If i think that it is murder, It is the childs rights i am worried about impinging upon. Sorry to steal the space.
Good luck with the adoption.

Adam

BTW, I am not JP . . .

Josh,

What you describe as undeniable is simply not undeniable. There is a lot of differences of opinion on when a fetus gains legal protections and a lot of gray area surrounding the whole issue. Many good people in our society could deny your undeniable claims as fervently as you speak them.

Take, for example, my two children that did not survive to birth. This happens anywhere from 1 out of 5 to 1 out of 8 pregnancies depending on what study you read.

If 1 out of 8 babies die before birth anyway, than can it be assumed that a given child would have not been the 1 of 8 if not for an abortion? Now you are charging someone for murder when they may NOT have actually effected the ultimate outcome anyway.

Then where does it stop? If your 2 year old in is your car without a seat restraint and you have a wreck that kills him it is your fault. I call it murder, others call it negligence or manslaughter.

But what if it isn't your two year old? What if it is your baby in the second trimester? You have a wreck while not wearing your seatbelt and miscarry. That is Murder Josh, by your definitions. But what if she did not know she was pregnant? Then it is murder? Manslaughter? What?

Sorry, but you are trying to force your cut and dry definitions on a whole society that does not and is not required to, share your moral values. I happen to share them. But I won't support government law to enforce them. It is not black and white, and simply wishing it so does not make it so.

And the statistics stated above are skewed from the get go. ANy knowledgable organization will tell you that the greater number of rapes and child sex crimes still go unreported at all. If rapes and child sex crimes go unreported, then it stands to reason that abortions following rape or child sex crimes are also not identified as such. They probably say things like "I am too young" or "I just can't afford it".

Let me state again, I am personally against abortion, but that does not mean I am so stupid that I want to give our government the power to run with that. I have see how our govenrment handles things. Everything goes to degrees that no right-thinking person would ever think they would. That is where all the "That's Outrageous" type news stories come from. A judge did this, a criminal was let go because of this, the social worker did the other. Given a door people will disgust you with how they bastardize what were good intentions when enacted.

So there are somethings we just cannot risk them doing that with. This is one of them.

Now back to your regurlarly scheduled blogwit. :)

Kerry: We are supposed to all make funny comments in this comments section, BUT I have got important beleifs to argue.....

Bush: I have some very important beleifs to argue, BUT we are supposed to make funny comments in this comments section.

Sorry for starting this

Adam

Chris,
You're ignoring my points and changing the argument. I never talked about legal status, never talked about the outcome of the birth. An unborn child is alive. An unborn child is human. Those facts are undeniable. Therefore, abortion is undeniably the taking of a human life, no matter what the legal status of the child, no matter what the eventual outcome of the birth would be. To move from the killing of human life to murder is a small step -- the barricades being arguments of self-defense, ignorance, negligence, etc., none of which apply in most abortions.

As I've said, your use of exceptions to the rule is a logical fallacy. Our current legal system already recognizes these issues with respect to murder. These issues can be dealt with in the exact same matter in the case of abortion.

Josh, Nope, JP is a devout Catholic, 31 year old housewife from Indiana with two beautiful girls and a fabulous husband of 7 years. I'm probably as far from a "Josh" as I can get!!!

JP

(ps - I was pro-life before I was Catholic )

Bush: I want to win, but freeing Iraqis is right.

Kerry: Freeing Iraqis is right, but I want to win

Um, I think the post right before this one is the winner.

Josh and JP, sorry I got you confused, and therefore my responses between you confused.

This is way too serious for Frank's blog. I am a conservative, politically, which is first and foremost for minimal government interference in people's lives. I am a Republican because that platform is closest to what I think is proper, but with exceptions.

Obviously, this is one of them. While my personal beliefs match most of those expressed here regarding abortion, it is a different issue to legislate it.

And looking at the exceptions or the possible off-the-wall uses of power that can be used is valid and necessary. You cannot have too much faith in your fellow man. As a society we would all agree that drugs in our schools is a bad thing. So what happens in trying to accomplish this simple and unanimously agreed to task? We start expelling 14 year old girls for taking a Midol for cramps during her period. You and I are rational and reasonable enough to draw a line somewhere in there, but apparently, the people who run our education systems are too stupid to pull it off. They cannot come up with a plan that differentiates between crack and aspirin. There are endless examples of good intentions taken to retarded extremes. This subject is too personal and too important, to release to the interpretation of our generally stupid "community leaders".

Last thought before I return to what IMAO was meant for, satire and monkey hatred...

I appreciate the ability of the people in this discussion to have a "discussion" about such a charged subject without wigging out. Have a pro-life discussion on Dem Underground and someone will be threatening to kill you.

Thanks all.

Sorry to continue the thread Hijack, but I promise I'll stop.

The fundemental difference seems to be that you see outlawing abortion as an attempt to legislate morality which goverment should not do, we see it as the protection of the right to life which government should do. I believe your arguement fails because it only addresses those that make the argument on a moral basis, which we are not doing. You are attacking a premise we did not make.

I'm stopping now but...

come on people WAKE UP
bush sucks BIGTIME
you're all sick
I'm not saying we should vote for kerry but bush is a gayloving negro in a white suite

I like this...
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Ok I haven't read through all the posts so I'll just answer to beo.
First of all, you stat france as beeing a 'foreign enemie'. Well I'd say we don't have the same concept of enemie. According to you someone who disagries with your point of view is an enemie ? you must have a boat load of them then. Quit frankly I can assure you that france isn't and never was your enemie, and you can trust me on that I'm french. And if there is one thing I have to say it's that I love the US as much as france.
Next you say that all those enemies suported kerry because it would make the US weaker. But what do you make of all those americains that voted kerry ? Do they also want to weaken america ? Or a you just saying that almost half of america is made up of idiots ?
I think one of the most important things when discussing politics is beeing open minded. Will I did suport kerry, I do realise that there are some things in is campaign that aren't perfect, just as there are some good points in bush's administration. But overall it is my view that kerry as definetly more to give to america to make it stronger ( but I respects anyone who thinks the opposit).
Now to get back to your original claims you say that every foreigner that suported kerry was admiting that he would make america weaker. And on there I am most certain you are wrong. I for one suported kerry because I belived he would make america stronger. He's not the one who came into office with a surplus leftover from previous governements only to finnish is term with a deficit. A deficit mainly created by a war that was not only declared for no apprarent reason ( or maybe one very appraent but untold one: oil), but also a war that might have been avoided had he allowed the UN to do there job.
Well actually If I wrtited this after the election is because I came by this post by accident will reaserching somthing els and it kind of ticked me off. Your post is the exact kind of claims that make americain hated more and more over the world. I can assure you that foreigner that don't have you point of view are not out to invade america. I have serval friends in france who suport kerry and love america as much as I do. So I would sugest you consider general descrimination in just the same light as you would racisime. You cannot but all people born in the same country or of the same skin color on the same bag. We are all unic and different and allowed to our opinion

BEO IS A TWAT AND CLEARLY HAS NO IDEA ABOUT POLITICS. I'M GUESSING THAT YOU ARE AMERICAN.

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