first?

I'll take my (American) pickup truck over those hypbrids any day.

Safer, far more utile.

Of course, I'm kind of a redneck...

I think it's great that Toyota has figured out how to sucker extra money out of the gullible. It keeps the cost of their real vehicles reasonable.

[snip]
Hybrid cars are a feel-good scam.
[/snip]
And???

Give em 10 years and I bet every new car will be hybrid...and they will actually save you money.

10 FREAKIN' YEARS???!!! I plan on burning jet fuel in my flying car by then. If we're all driving hybrid cars in 10 years or riding "mass transit" I will personal sponsor a "revolution".

How strange that they need to launch a dishonest campaign to get liberals to become early adopters of technology they say they agree with. Another example of how eager libs are to spend other people's money on stuff the libs believe in.

yep

yep

You'll notice that the Hybrid Civic from Honda does not sell as well as the Prius. Of course the Prius has distinct visual cues letting everyone on the freeway see your hybrid-driving virtuous ways, while the civic looks like an ordinary civic. Yeah, I'd say vanity has something to do with it.

You know, there actually are people out there who drive more than 66,500 miles a year-- not many, but they exist. My husband drove regularly back and forth between Sacramento (where he was stationed) and San Diego (where I was going to school) back when he was courting me.

For 5 grand?

It reminds me of a rant a friend of mine had when it came out that Jim Baker paid a couple hundred grand to keep his mistress a secret (what WAS her name again?). He said, "For a couple hundred grand he could've bought a new Mercedes, a case of Rum, and three Puerto Rican hookers. And when it was all over, he could've kept the Mercedes!"

Yeah ... kind of like that.

If I recall correctly, they really do cut pollution relative to a pure gas burner. Apparrently the extra fabrication steps produce less pollution than the extra gas burned by a non-hybrid. So if you are really concerned about that extra couple of tanks of gas smothering us in carbondioxide and water, buy a hybrid. If you are concerned about money, buy a civic or a corolla.

I dunno, this is a matter of taste thing, one of my friends is getting a hybrid to replace her 15 year old Civic. Purely for the gas mileage. She drives a lot so it means a lot to her. Me give me a nice 30/40 MPG wagon and that'll be good enough

I'm not sure the same comparison can be made about the Honda Accord. The V-6 hybrid engine is more powerful than the standard V6 and over 5 years of moderate driving (I don't remember how much that was) the 5K cost increase is covered by fuel savings.

I agree with the post EXCEPT for one thing; it makes the assumption that you will actually get the claimed mileage from a hybrid. You won't.

The problem is that the EPA tests don't reflect actual driving conditions, and with hybrids their error is magnified.
That 60mpg rating often ends up being around 35mpg, and a lot of buyers are noticing and are not pleased. I wouldn't be either. Heck, my SUV gets 30mpg!

I've looked into this, and have seen plenty of data to prove that this problem exists. I'm astounded that with all they hype about hybrids lately, this story is not big news. Here are a couple of links. Even more can be found by googling "hybrid gas mileage" (without the quotes). And, of course, like any other product, skip the stories published by people who have a vested interest such as selling them.

I've shortned the links below (one from CNN and one from USA today) using tinyurl, but they are cut-and-past because I don't know how to make them clickable. Sorry.

http://tinyurl.com/2gf3f
http://tinyurl.com/2n4dl

Ahh, I now see the instructions to make them clickable, so I'll try it below on the same two links.

">first link
">second link

... and to pick up hippy chicks. :-)

Dave-to say that it would take 10 years to break even on the gas savings is very misleading. The total number of years that it would take is obviously related to the number of miles you drive per year. I drive over 90 miles a day, so it would take me much less than 5 years to make the car a good purchase.
Most people, if they don't resell their Accord after a few years, end up owning them longer than 5 years. Probably closer to 10 I would guess.

And Dave, there are only a few manufacturers out there who make hybrid sedans. The price isn't going anywhere for a while.

What happens when the batteries wear out and the electric motor breaks?

But the bigger loss will be when you try to resell your hybrid. They will depreciate much faster than traditional cars (due to the finite battery life and the improved efficiencies of newer models) which means the $5,000 difference will double or triple.

Of course the real irony is that the original Geo Metro could get over 40 mpg on the highway. Yes, it could be crushed by a child on a tricycle, but it still got great mileage!

You know, I hate to be the one to bring this up, but...

Hybrid cars are totally gay.

When I see a hybrid, I usually try to run them off the road with my V-8 extended cab pickup truck. (Dang sissies...)
And chicks really do like pickup trucks.
And hot rods! My WS6 T/A gets (in theory) about 27mpg (if you drive reasonable - heh.)

Plus, the cost per mile and actual gas savings have been terribly mistated, as have been already mentioned.

If you buy the hybrid, the $5k goes to the american car dealer and the japanese car company. Japan is a democratic free market ally of ours, and they have been helpful in both gulf wars.

If you spend the $5k on gas instead, the money goes to the oil ticks.

I have to agree. I've checked it out myself, and if you're concerned about gas usage(whether it's to save the enviroment, not send money to the terrorists, or just to save money). For the price, getting a reasonable vehicle with good gas milege is still the vastly better deal.

I'd like to buy one, just because I'm a techie, and a greenie in the 'don't waste stuff you don't have to' way. Stuff like turning off the lights when I'm not using them, or not taking a bag when I buy something and don't need one.

Thanks for the enlightened article and many comments. It has reinforced the fact that understanding the importance of hybrids is far too complex and beyond the intelligence of most people.

I have a Honda Civic Hybrid. Did I buy it to save money? No, my primary motivation was to use less gas. To get my car, I paid about $3,000 extra for the hybrid and people keep telling me that it may take me 10+ years to save $3000 in gas costs and break even on my purchase. However, in the first 17,000 miles, I am averaging 47mpg. Part of that comes from thinking ahead and making smart choices. (I no longer race from one red light to the next only to slam on my brakes and sit at the next light, engine idling.) So instead of a big financial windfall, I get the small satisfaction going to the pump less often and spending less when I'm there. Besides, don't we all make choices to buy something more expensive sometimes. Why buy a Sony television if the Emerson costs half as much? Why buy a Mercedes or BMW when a Kia or Hyundai gets you there as well.

Second, everyone keeps talking about this magic number of 10 years...the length of time it will take to make up for the extra cost of a hybrid. Does everyone realize that this is based on today's price of gas? What happens when demand for oil and petroleum continues to rise, especially in growing economies like China and India? How long will it take to recoup the cost of my hybrid when gas is $5/gallon or higher?

Finally, what's the one factor we are all forgetting? HYBRIDS USE LESS GAS! Everyone keeps talking about the supply of petroleum and how long it will last. The real answer to reducing our dependency on foreign oil and ensuring we have oil in the future is to decrease our consumption. Obviously, many of you, as one reader put it, don't care about the environment. You should...especially if you have children. Ask kids today if they care about rising pollution levels, greenhouse gases, rising ocean levels, el niño, the extinction risk to whales and giant pandas, and a whole list of other environmental concerns.

Oh, and since when did economics and money become the only factor that affects everything? If economics drove all decisions completely, it is likely that there would be no unions, no workers protections, no minimum wage, no pensions, and no environmental protections and regulations for industry - how many of you remember the day Lake Erie caught of fire because it was so polluted? Heck, you can pay kids less than adults, so why not just do away with child-labor laws next? I can just keep going...there are a lot of other things that would change if economics was the only factor driving all decisions.

Then again, my guess is this is all falling on deaf ears. For so many people, ignorance is bliss.

In closing, if we are just instead going to spew rhetoric, old wives tales and untested results (I challenge someone to show me an SUV that averages 30mpg!), let me remind you all of another "truth" about mens cars and their egos. This whole discussion may be moot because perhaps we are all redestined as to what kind of car we drive....because we all know that its true that a mans car is inversely proportional to the size of his......

Thanks for the enlightened article and many comments. It has reinforced the fact that understanding the importance of hybrids is far too complex and beyond the intelligence of most people.

I have a Honda Civic Hybrid. Did I buy it to save money? No, my primary motivation was to use less gas. To get my car, I paid about $3,000 extra for the hybrid and people keep telling me that it may take me 10+ years to save $3000 in gas costs and break even on my purchase. However, in the first 17,000 miles, I am averaging 47mpg. Part of that comes from thinking ahead and making smart choices. (I no longer race from one red light to the next only to slam on my brakes and sit at the next light, engine idling.) So instead of a big financial windfall, I get the small satisfaction going to the pump less often and spending less when I'm there. Besides, don't we all make choices to buy something more expensive sometimes. Why buy a Sony television if the Emerson costs half as much? Why buy a Mercedes or BMW when a Kia or Hyundai gets you there as well.

Second, everyone keeps talking about this magic number of 10 years...the length of time it will take to make up for the extra cost of a hybrid. Does everyone realize that this is based on today's price of gas? What happens when demand for oil and petroleum continues to rise, especially in growing economies like China and India? How long will it take to recoup the cost of my hybrid when gas is $5/gallon or higher?

Finally, what's the one factor we are all forgetting? HYBRIDS USE LESS GAS! Everyone keeps talking about the supply of petroleum and how long it will last. The real answer to reducing our dependency on foreign oil and ensuring we have oil in the future is to decrease our consumption. Obviously, many of you, as one reader put it, don't care about the environment. You should...especially if you have children. Ask kids today if they care about rising pollution levels, greenhouse gases, rising ocean levels, el niño, the extinction risk to whales and giant pandas, and a whole list of other environmental concerns.

Oh, and since when did economics and money become the only factor that affects everything? If economics drove all decisions completely, it is likely that there would be no unions, no workers protections, no minimum wage, no pensions, and no environmental protections and regulations for industry - how many of you remember the day Lake Erie caught of fire because it was so polluted? Heck, you can pay kids less than adults, so why not just do away with child-labor laws next? I can just keep going...there are a lot of other things that would change if economics was the only factor driving all decisions.

Then again, my guess is this is all falling on deaf ears. For so many people, ignorance is bliss.

In closing, if we are just instead going to spew rhetoric, old wives tales and untested results (I challenge someone to show me an SUV that averages 30mpg!), let me remind you all of another "truth" about mens cars and their egos. This whole discussion may be moot because perhaps we are all redestined as to what kind of car we drive....because we all know that its true that a mans car is inversely proportional to the size of his......

Gosh Ken,

What a horrible cross you bear, being so brilliant and all, while having to put up with the ignorant, unwashed, idiotic masses.

I feel for you. The was a beautiful essay.

However, global warming is

A: Not necessarily a fact.

B: Even if it is a fact, it may or may not be man-made.

I don't have no fancy book-learnin' Ph.D. or nuthin', but I still thing that the temperature of the planet has something to do with THE SUN!!!!

Also, I have found (albeit with my pea-sized brain) that generally, people who flaunt their degrees (real, fake, or imagined) to strangers do so to make up for their shortcomings related to very small penis size and/or low intelligence.

Methinks you are probably a double-header.

Additionally, I may be completely stupid and wrong and ignorant, but I don't drive a car that is totally gay, and you do.
Sorry, but facts are facts, and hybrid cars are gay. I saw that on C-BS and read it in Newsweak, so it must be true.

Also, you come across as a smarmy, elitist, condescending a**hole. Try toning it down a little,

Oh, yeah. My pickup truck is grey with a bow-tie on the grill (cause it's Amurican!). Watch for it barreling up behind you some day!! :)

Yee-Haw!

Oh by the way Ken,
real Ph.D.'s don't double-post.
Asshat.

JimmyB,

Thanks for proving my point.

Hybrid cars are gay? What is this? 4th grade?

Global warming? Did I ever say it was a fact? No, I merely mentioned it was something to think about. Besides, the issue is far to complex to be able to simplify it down to a single cause and effect. But golly gee, thanks for reminding me that The Sun is the bottom line.

Oh, and I'll watch for your car. I will say, however, I don't understand what it is about certain issues that people feel the need to threaten those with different viewpoints. I'd hate to see what happens to those who don't vote the way you do or who have different social or religious beliefs.

And finally, I only wave my diploma at times when it seems relevant to let people know that I've spent enough time in higher education to be able to deal with complex issues beyond a simplistic or emotional level. For example, how to we preserve oil for the future? We have to consider the supply and the demand. Its not just about drilling for more oil, but also how can we conserve it. However, if you will to play at the simplistic level and want to reduce it all down to hybrids are gay, the sun warms the earth and people with Ph.D.'s are asses, then why am I wasting my time? A close mind is a perfect thing to waste!

Dear Super-genius Ken,

Here goes…

I live in the country. It's a RURAL area (ya know, Red-state style!). Pick-up trucks are utile, and have nothing to do with "size". Just practicality. Sorry I couldn't prove your point. Is your PhD in psychology, or human sexuality?

Also, I try to shoot for the 2nd grade level, 4th grade seems a little pretentious. Is your PhD in education? Please tell me you don't teach!

Another point. Based on your last comments, I will type this R-E-A-L S-L-O-W.
This sight is based on HUMOR. Humor is something you don’t have, apparently. This site is frequented by evil, black-hearted conservatives.
What did you expect?
By the way, I didn’t threaten anybody, it’s just those slow little gay hybrids end up in front of me, because they are slow and driven by timid tree-huggers and dirty-hippies (e.g. college professors, activists and MSM folk). Jesus tells me to love these asshats, so I try real hard. Is your PhD in theology?

“I'd hate to see what happens to those who don't vote the way you do or who have different social or religious beliefs.”
Gosh Ken, I’ll tell you what happens. I try to explain my viewpoint to them. I use facts and logic. Pretty radical, huh. This really pisses off liberals. They hate facts and logic.
They usually end up playing the racist or Hitler card. That is their answer to cold, hard facts. Ever use the word "facist" in normal conversation, Kenny? Is your PhD in history?
Sometimes I call these people asshats, too. But that is rare.

If you want people to fawn over your diatribes, go to Democratic Underground, and don’t forget your tin-foil hat. Are you a metallurgist?

Man, you libs are so touchy –
"Ooohhh, those conservatives are scary and ignorant. They’ve got guns, and trucks, and believe in that Jeebus guy!"

I work with a large number of libs, and we get along because they are respectful, Mr. “the importance of hybrids is far too complex and beyond the intelligence of most people.”
I am respectful of them too, because they aren’t smarmy jerks. Is your PhD in pissing people off?

So your diploma is relevant. What is it in, engineering? Tree-hugging? Smarminess? Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to say what you are a subject matter expert in, than the letters in your degree? I work in the auto industry, and I know tons of educated, well-paid idiots. Most of them talk like you. Impress me with facts and ideas, not letters you can buy. Forgive me for not bowing down to your superior intellect, but I need proof, not DNC talking points and letters. Does your PhD make you smart in everything, or were you just born that way? Is your PhD in genetics?

Also, there is beauty in simplicity. Simple good, commplecks bad.

Here is simple:
Hybrids are gay (just like Ipods).
I am also still pretty sure the sun warms the earth, but you may have me there. (Kenny, are you an astrophysicist, too?)
Not all PhD’s are asses, but you definitely might be an ass. Being an ass is gay (hat-tip to my daughter for the proper usage of gay!!).

Thanks again for telling us how smart and educated you are. Personally, I almost forgot.

Finally, I am not closed minded. That is why I am a conservative. I used to be a democratic lib, but that just doesn’t jive well with critical thought and reality. Plus I grew up.

Asshat. Oh, look! A rarity just occured!

May the good Lord bless you, Ken. I will pray for you.
(Man, this is going to take a lot of prayer!)

Happy Birthday to FrankJ, too!!! Woo-Hoo!!

(I'm running out of beer, and have blisters on my fingers!)

JimmyB

My Ph.D. is in Transportation Science. My dissertation involved hybrid technology, economics, and their combined role in the future of petroleum. I think that qualifies me as someone who has spent some time on the subject as is worthy of having an opinion. Whether you agree with it or not, I guess that is another story. By the way...will the soon to be released Dodge Hybrid Pickup be a gay car too?

As for the rest, there's really nothing else to say. If you'd like to continue this conversation without the mindless name-calling and wild assumptions about who I am, then I'd be happy to discuss my views...in a humorous setting or otherwise. The funny thing is that you'd probably be surprised who I really am - not exactly the gay, tree-hugging, hippy liberal that you paint me out to be simply from a few words of support for hybrids and environmental issues.

Thank you for clarifying your position.
A Dodge truck hybrid!?!?!?!
Does...Not...Compute
Dais-y...Dais---y...Give...me...your...
..answer....do

By the way, everything I do is mindless, not just name-calling.

Weenie.

I never said you were gay. Just your car.
I must admit, I am in a bit of a quandry about the Dodge!

Sorry to profile you, I just generally assume people that come across as arrogant, elitist tree-huggers are arrogant, elitist tree-huggers.
My bad.

Kind of like you assuming conservatives are violent. You ever notice most of the looters and rioters in this country are liberal? Ever see an angry group of conservatives burn down a Starbucks?

Still praying...

If you care for a more in depth discussion, sans my witty and hilarious name-calling, my email address is:

cugblog@msn.com

www.hybridcars.com

There you can find information on the Dodge Ram Hybrid Pickup, which began production in December, 2004 and is currently only available to fleet customers.

They also have information on the Ford Escape, Lexus RX400h hybrid SUV's, and the soon to be released Toyota Highlander, Mercury Mariner, Saturn VUE SUV Hybrids and the Toyota Sienna Minivan Hybrid.

Also in the works for hybrid technology: Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon, Honda Pilot, Mazda Tribute, and Porsche Cayenne.

Remind us again why hybrids are gay?

As for violence, I don't think liberals have the monopoly on that one - how can we forget the Right to Lifers who have killed doctors, or the white supremecists who have killed minorities just to name a few.

Its funny how you keep assuming I am assuming things. That's like the pot calling the kettle black. Its doubly funny when you consider I myself am actually a conservative and registered member of the GOP. Just because I don't agree with the extreme right-wing of the party, doesn't make me a liberal. Then again, I guess that's a a matter of opinion and if so, its a game I can never win.

As a student at Kettering University, we actually are on the forefront of both hybrid and fuel cell research. While hybrid MIGHT be practical somewhere in the future, it is still impractical now. We have state of the art equipment and major grants from several of the large auto manufacturers to study these subjects. You can argue all you like about whatever report, but I can read dynomometer and test equipment data all on my own, and very few of the studies are anywhere close to truthful. One major factor is also left out: the majority of the pollution comes from commercial vehicles, which hybrid technology is woefully inadequate to power. Large vehicles require greater amounts of torque than can be efficiently provided by current technology. Sorry, but them's the facts. If you really want a more efficient vehicle, try biodiesel. It's easier to convert to, and more fuel efficient than hybrid power.
P.S.- Jimmyb's right, hybrids ARE gay

What’s up, doc? What’s cookin’? What’s up, doc? Are you lookin’…
Hiya, Dr. Kenny!

I hereby promise not to call you a weenie or an asshat anymore, because I know it offends your sensibilities. Even though you are one, I still won’t call you that. See, I’m only partially mindless. A kinder, gentler conservative.

I went to that web-site you recommended. It’s kind of tree-huggy, but they keep it low-key. That’s good, as that is the only way the left can get people to buy into their wacky ideas.

*sigh* How many more millions must die because of these idiots?

I am an American auto-industry guy (you know, one of the unwashed, working-class masses) so keep your foreign stuff to yourself. Don’t even bother with the “this Jap car is made in America”.

Hybrids are gay because I said so. I mean, just look at them! Type in Prius and gay into google and see what you get. Hell, look at the previous comment (right on, Akula53). It’s not just me.

Do you even know what gay means in the context I’m using it in? Go talk to some teenagers about the definition, they’ll clue you in (if that’s possible).

You own an Ipod, don’t you?

Oooooh, the violent Right-to-Lifers!!! Yeah, they’re killin’ people left and right.
Last count, 7 dead doctors versus 45 million plus babies killed. Hmmmm, yeah, those religious wackos are winning that battle!

The white supremacist killing sprees exist only in the mind of dirty-hippies, sheltered college professors, Hollywood and the MSM.

(Remember the Sum of All Fears movie – Eeeeek!! Those damn evil Nazis are everywhere!! Stupid PC stuff! How come libs see Nazis everywhere, but have no problem with commies? Commies killed, and are killing, way more people than the Nazis ever dreamed of.)

Anyway... Sure you can find individual instances of a member of any group causing harm. However, these instances you speak of are executed (no pun intended) by one or two deranged individuals.
I mean, if right-wingers were violent, I would be torching 2 or 3 hippies a day (which is legal in Ohio, but not in Florida).

Conversely, lefties are ORGANIZED and show up in LARGE GROUPS to smell bad, loot, protest, set fires, and wave stupid puppets (thanks Frank!). They also hate all religions except Islam. And that’s only after 9/11.
Sup wi dat?

My favorite part of your last post:

...I myself am actually a conservative and registered member of the GOP.

Puh-lease! Dude, now you’re just insulting my intelligence. You are, best case, a RINO. And a pretty lame one at that. Worst case (the one that has my vote) you’re a total lib, and you think conservatives are so stupid that we will believe you are a conservative. Maybe if you said one thing that was conservative, it would be more believable.

I could go on Democratic Underground or KOS and say, “Gee guys, I’m a liberal, Marxist, greasy-hippy, but don’t you honestly think that self-defense with firearms is a God-given right, and abortion is murder. Maybe we should reconsider.”

Even those tinfoil-hat wearing DU lunatics wouldn’t buy that one.
Plus, what makes you think I am the extreme right wing? Hell, you should meet my brothers!! I am darn near a friendly moderate like that crying sissy George Voinovich, or the traitorous Mike DeWhiney (I’m an Ohio boy. Go Red-States!!). God willing, we’ll be voting those jerks out soon.

By the way, I noticed that you,

A: Didn’t use my email, because you apparently want a public forum (an ego is a terrible thing to waste!).

And

B: Never fessed up to double-posting. A minor issue, but funny for a self-professed brain-boy!

And

C: You have never addressed your insulting, belittling, and condescending attitude and remarks towards me, and the other people on this site. I would surmise that is because there is no excuse for that, which you already know.

That part alone (C) was pretty much the whole reason I posted in reply to your post. Your wear your contempt for your fellow man like a cheap suit.
You superiority complex is palpable, even over the internet.

Also, I believe you owe me a little more respect in this comment section, because I was FIRST!!! You must be new here. Generally, I would expect people to bow to my superior firstness, unless they are group bloggers on this site (*sigh* - someday…).

Therefore, because you have insulted my honor, and the honor of my blog-bros (and sisters), I demand we kung-fu fight to the death.
Throwing stars are optional, but absolutely NO BREAST-FED MUTANT NINJA KITTENS!!

I am sure that because of your 1,000 point IQ, your head will be ginormous and hugegantic, and make a swell target for my patented spinning-dragon-back-hand-bitch-slap-of-death.

Really sorry about your early demise and all, but honor…

So then, I live in DC.
My address is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
It is a huge place, you can't miss it.

Just stand outside the gate and yell “I’m going to murder you, and blow up your house, you right-wing son-of-a-b****!!!”
That will be our secret code for me to know that it is you so I can come out and fight you.
The gate is quite far from the house, so you might want to wave a stainless or chrome handgun around so I can see the reflection, and thus, notice you in a more timely fashion.

Hey wait! I know! Pop off a couple shots when you get there, in addition to the yelling! Then I’ll hear you for sure! That will be part of our secret code, too.

See you there at high-noon, doc.

Oh yeah, I’m still praying for you, doc.
My email is cugblog@msn.com
My site is The Conservative UAW Guy
Drop by any time.

(Sorry for the shameless blog-whoring Frank, but it is probably time to move this discussion off of your site! Unless you say otherwise, of course.)

I HAVE SPOKEN.

The Great and Powerful jimmyb.

Word.

Disclaimer: I am half-in-the-bag now. Stoopid beer!

D'oh!
Here is the BREAST-FED MUTANT NINJA KITTEN link.
Sorry Frank and Sarah, it was supposed to be in the original, previous comment.
Stoopid beer.