I heard a similar comment about ensoulment from a jew while at apro-life demonstration.

He informed me that our capacity for language is what gives us our soul, so because they can't speak in the womb it's not murder. Being a primate researcher, I let him know that chimp and human infants have a similar capacity for language up through several months of age (close to a year IIRC), did that mean we can kill newborn infants as well?

And then he said "ah but an infant has a greater capacity for language. He will potentially develop language."

"SO will an infant in the womb if you let it actually be born"

"DAMN"

A progressive Christian is one who thinks he can buy his way into Heaven with my money.

You're right that the soul theory doesn't mesh well with supporting abortion.

But I've actually met less souls than hippies I didn't want to punch, so I'm not sure they exist.

The closest you'll get to that is

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Pro-Abortion Christians?

Who has ever heard of such a thing?

Thanks for a great site.

Will be blogrolling you.

I think you can do better with Jeremiah 1:5.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you..."

Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." (See also Mark 14:21)

This isn't an argument however that any of us can use. We don't know people's future choices and decisions, only Jesus did. Then, even in that instance, Judas was allowed to live in order to bring about God's will.

You're right, there is no argument for "progressive Christians" whatsoever to support abortion. Christ became incarnate when Mary became pregnant... at conception. Why should we think any differently?

In Jewish law, whether the unborn baby has a soul or not is pretty much immaterial (there's a discussion on the subject in the Talmud, Sanhedrin 91b, but not in a legal context).

From the standpoint of Jewish law, abortion is generally prohibited, either as murder or as destruction of potential human life. The basic exception is a case where the pregnancy threatens the mother's life; in that case the unborn baby is considered an assailant, and may be aborted (Code of Jewish Law, Choshen Mishpat 425:2). However, once the baby is born (defined as when its head has emerged), its life has equal value with its mother's, so it may not be killed to save her life (ibid.). (Possibly your Jewish interlocutor was thinking of this law with his statement about ensoulment and the ears.)

What if a baby is born without ears?

Jewish Law is a bit more complicated than that. See here. (Aish is a well-respected orthodox group.)

Also here is a list of articles about abortion in Jewish Law that you can download as PDFs, if you want even more detail. Again, these are all orthodox rabbis who would take the most stringent positions.

Could it be that a progressive Christian is just one who doesn't follow what the Bible teaches? They pick and choose which parts of the Bible they like.

You mean Buffet Christianity aka The National Council of Churches?

Isaiah 44:2--Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee;...

Isaiah 44:24--Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things];...

Jeremiah 30:17--Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb [to be] always great [with me].

Hosea 12:3--He(Jacob)took his brother(Esau) by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God

So, what do we have? GOD forms us IN THE WOMB, Jeremiah talks about his mother's WOMB being his grave(how can something DIE if it din't first LIVE???), and Jacob was perceptive enough to grab his brother's heel BEFORE he came out of the womb.

Here's some more twisted thought: I had an e-mail exchange with a woman who said that a child is not alive until they breathe through their nostrils. Yet, she was in favor of partial-birth abortion(in which the child's head exits the womb and breathes through his nostrils). Go figure.

Well, according to an episode of CSI Las Vegas, Grissom says that if one takes the Bible literally, life is in the blood. Babies in the womb don't get blood until 18 days after conception; therefore, babies aren't "alive" for the first 18 days.

Which is a weird way to look at it... and does that mean Grissom doesn't like abortions?

I'm pretty sure a progressive Christian is someone who hopes to get into heaven by blending into the crowd and sneaking by the guards at the gate, or by way of the back door, or something.

Okay, I checked it out (you've been quite busy over there Frank). Those folks may call themselves Christians but they are obviously just another bunch of angry liberals. What garbage!

So many people disagree with when life actually begins...With ethical and moral issues, especially involving human life, it is always best to err on the safe side. Life begins at conception.

If they pass a law saying that we can kill innocent people without souls, the I call Ted Kennedy!
...The loophole will be called the Rindo Loophole...I'm so honored...

Psalms 22:10 (21:11 in the Catholic Bible) I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

So it seems the soul does originate from the womb.

If language skills are the determining factor, then consider
Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Don't people play Mozart for their gestating progeny in the hope that their math skills will develop?

Sound travels through water quite efficiently, and the unborn can hear. Their main language defect is they can't say, "NO! Don't hurt me!"

Actually, Jesus does say that: "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." (Matt 26:24/Mark 14:21)

I do think those "Christians" are pretty off the mark on abortion; it just sounds like typical white liberal guilt to me: "Oh look, it's self-righteous white men banning murder, oh oh oh what if a woman's life would be more convenient with murder? Those bastards!"

The Psalms aren't written by God but for him. And AlexC's quote is invalid because it's God telling Jeremiah that He picked Jeremiah out to be a Prophet, with no assumptions about anyone else. (The analogy would be Allah creating Jesus under similar circumstances in suras 3 and 19.)

I'm pro-life myself; let's not discredit our cause by citing irrelevant scriptures.

I suspect that SilverBubble has it about right from a Karaite or Samaritan perspective (Tanakh / Torah only, no Talmud). Jesus's Pharisaic opponents likely followed what we would recognise as Jewish law more or less as Yehudit has shown us. But was Jesus more Pharisaic or Essene? And what did the Essenes have to say about it?

These Progressive Christians, these nominal Christian, these Laodiceans (Rev. 3:14-22), would be counciled by Jesus to by gold that He has refined in the fire, white clothing, and salve for thier eyes so that they can see.

I feel bad for them honestly. They are so deluded by thier church (if the church aspect is missing I wouldn't call myself a Christian,not fellowshipping with brothers and sisters, the Body of Christ) into thinking that the main goal in this life is to be not offend anyone (except, it seems, Jesus Christ). People the chief goal in this life is to glorify God. If you think killing a child is glorifying to God then by all means do it and tell us how we may better serve God by destroying a child.

If I remember correctly differentiation between individuals is done by DNA. If that is the case, then a mother and child have separate DNA, a few minutes after conception. Morning after pill, sorry, maybe the minute after pill would be acceptable.

Finally the only reason people want this is because they refuse to obey the Seventh commandment, and they want to keep disobeying it. Yes, even if you are single it is adultery, that is not your spouse. Abortion is just a symptom of a sex-addicted culture. Don't even try to tell me I'm not tempted... I'm a pretty attractive 20 year old male. Everyday, you have to put to death the works of the flesh through the power of the Holy Sprit.

Guess I needed to practice a future sermon.

In closing, a quote from Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship,"Only those who obey believe, and only those who believe obey."

It didn't link my email, and I put it in the box for email address. Here it is if any of you have arguments against me. I do not wish to argue but if you believe I am Biblically wrong, please tell me, I want no fallacies in my interpretation of the Word. I only want Christ to be glorified.

I can't believe I messed that up again. I need to go to sleep, I have church in 6 hours. My Email: vortec190@charter.net

One of my friends informed me that my "attractive 20 year old male" phrase sounded slightly prideful. It does. I apologize.

I've never heard that Judaism has a concept of "ensoulment." It seems to me to be a formulation designed by pro-abortion Jews to allow abortion in all cases.
The Rabbinical formulation is that until 40 days after conception the embryo is simply liquid. That would seem to be where the Halacha would differ with the Christian formulation. Also Judaism permits abortion to save the life of the mother. As I understand Christianity does not.

I was told that I had to get an abortion in order to begin chemotherapy - so I was in fact presented with the penultimate "choice" that pro-abortionists throw out all the time. IF they pregnancy will harm the mother, blah blah blah. There is a reason that God gave me that baby, and if it was me or the baby, the I lose. But the world wins by getting my sweet baby boy. Only the most selfish would pick themselves over a baby, and it is rare that something as serious as cancer is the catalyst for such a choice. Usually, it is that the baby would interfere with the mothers lifestyle.

heidi