I normally couldn't care less about religion, but the whole Heaven/Hell aspect of Christianity has always bothered me. Didn't Dante propose multiple layers of heaven and hell? Seems like a partial solution, I don't know, I've never read more than a couple excerpts.

As for the top thing, believing multiple religions can lead to an eternal life isn't necessarily tolerance, since its not necessarily a GOOD afterlife, right?

See, here's the trick. As a long-time scholar of things spiritual (that's everything from Christianity to Islam to Taoism) you have to remember that straight-up Christianity does not believe that you can get to heaven by 'being good.' You're right; doing God's will is impossible.

Here's a little intellectual exercise: God, being God, would be perfect, right? And perfection means that every single part of Him would have to be perfect. For instance, if you were perfect, you couldn't eat an imperfect meal, because that would make part of you (what was in your gut) imperfect. By the same token, since we human beings can't be perfect, we couldn't do God's will to the extent that He would just allow us into Heaven.

Hence, the belief of Protestant Christianity, which holds that the whole thing is a lot easier: that if you "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." No crazy amounts of do-goodery required. ;-)

At that stage in the game, the whole intellectual dilemma becomes much easier if you look at it that way. Really, it's simple: either you accept that Jesus is Lord and thus recieve Heaven, or you reject Him, and you get Hell.

For future reference, however, it must be noted that Hell is not a place of fiery torment. The fiery bit is just figurative. Hell is a place without God. In other words, it's exactly what you ask for in rejecting God.

The way I see it (as a practicing evangelical Christian), Heaven is God's home. He'll let you live there if you agree to abide by His rules (along the lines of Jesus' "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me." (John 14:6)). If you tell God, "Up yours," He'll give you what you want and let you spend eternity without Him. (In a way, wouldn't it be cruel for God to force an atheist to spend eternity in His presence?)

The Bible talks about treasures in Heaven, implying varying degrees of rewards above and beyond mere entrance to the Heavenly Kingdom. If so, it seems logical that there would also be degrees of punishment in Hell. Christian apologist and astrophysicist Hugh Ross speculates that the suffering in Hell is a sign of God's love, as it restrains those in Hell from making eternity even more miserable for those around them (for example, Hitler and Arafat have merited a great deal of punishment/restraint, but that neighbor of yours who's a nice person but rejects God's love does not require such restraint).

Of course, we can't know for sure until we get there, but this explanation seems reasonable and (as far as I can tell) doesn't contradict Scripture.

Unlike Protestantism, Catholics believe both that a limbo state called Purgatory exists and that you can't just get into heaven by believing in God. You can't just not be evil, you have to be actively good. By the same token, you don't go to hell just because you're not actively good. You have to be actively evil. Everybody in the middle (which strikes me should be the majority of humanity) ends up in Purgatory, where you stay until enough people on earth pray for your soul to go to heaven.

I'm sure by the time I finish this, someone will have already said everything I'm saying, but that isn't stopping me:

Hell was never intended for us (humans). It was originally just the home for Satan/fallen angels/etc. The reason we're destined to go there now is because of the fall, and our sinful natures. God doesn't force us to go to Hell; He offers us a way out, His son. It's up to us to take it.

You can think of Heaven as a really upscale country club. Everyone wants to get it, but there's one rule. You can only enter if you're perfect. And the owner doesn't change the rules. Humans were perfect, and had no problem until that whole Eden incident. If we commit one sin after we're born (which isn't too hard to do), we've lost any hope at being perfect. The only chance we have at making it into the club is if God doesn't see our sin. Jesus' death doesn't make us any less sinful, but when God checks out a Christian (to see if we're acceptable), He doesn't see us, He sees Jesus.

The problem with the "good" people go to Heaven theory is who determines whose good? Where's the line between good and bad? Do you have to preform good actions 50% of the time? Are some actions worth more good than others? For something like that to work, you'd need to use some sort of measuring like oooooh I don't know, the Bible. But if you do that, you have to take into account everything it says, not just the parts you want, ya know?

Well since you opened this can of worms.... One thing that always bothered me was that most sects of organized religion preach that if you beleive in thier specific interpetation you will go to "heaven", and all others will go to hell. So how am I to know if I picked the right sect? heaven must be realtively empty, but Hell is chock full of those that believed but "picked wrong". Heaven and Hell seem to be the proverbial carrot on the stick.

Then we have catholisism where if you make a death bed "confession" and truly believe, no matter what you did, you will be forgiven. All forgiving loving god right?

Demon with clipboard. "Oh, sorry. The answer we were looking for is 'Mormon.' Mormon is the right answer."

That's a good point, but now one can wonder whether doing God's will counts for those who do it in any religion. The Buddhist monks, for example. Also, what about those who do great things for the world without doing it for God, like, say, a few founding fathers who were technically Deists?

There seem to be problems with pretty much any guess as to what happens after death, though Purgatory is a relatively acceptable compromise to the Heaven/Hell issue. That, and the layers that AR brought up, though I'm not familiar with layers of Heaven... I should finish reading those.

For the record, I started typing that back when AR had the only comment.

I think people are reading a bit too much into this.

At the broadest, I think the survey is saying that many people believe that the People of The Book (i.e. Christians, Jews, and Muslims) who are good and follow the rules laid down by God can go to Heaven: at narrowest, that Presbyterians think that Baptists can make it, too. . .

Mind you, without the EXACT questions and all the data, you can skew it any way you choose (and even more so WITH the questions and selected excerpts of the polling data. . . )

Only one way to find out for sure. I can wait. No hurry to find out.

Dante was a writer and, to my knowledge, never professed to be a prophet. I wouldn't take his (or Milton's) view on things as . . . Gospel.

The recent Pew Research Poll about religion (21% of atheists belive in G-d) got me thinking that many Christians probably don't have a complete understanding of Christianity. I'm counted in that group. I've taken it on to read the Bible thoroughly, do the study guides, and engage in discussions whenever I can.

From the admittedly limited research I've done, it seems there are two "main" Protestant divisions. In a nutshell, one contends humans can attain salvation and one says it's G-d's to give. I've come to accept the second one.

What does this entail? Well, I can provide a muddled response, but I think folks would be better served reading the debates between Arminian and Reformed theologians.

It's a complex discussion, so don't expect to get the full breadth in one afternoon. I've been studying for a while and still feel like I have a mountain of service, reading, and praying ahead of me. In truth, I can't say for certain G-d will give me salvation.

That said, he was pretty clear about other gods. He spelled it out in the Old Testament and, even with the slimmed down New Testament (that is, if you compare the Commandments with the Golden Rule, you can see the Golden Rule covers the bases without all the parsing), He made sure that point was hammered through again.

There's 1 G-d. Love Him and show your love by obeying His Word.

Treat others as you want to be treated.

Punch hippies.

It's all there in Luke 10: 25-37 (the thieves were hippies).

The Catholic notion of Purgatory is consistent with our main beliefs-- for example, the "perfection" of the Virgin Mary. How could a flawed, imperfect human woman be the vessel that carries God Himself? Answer: she could not be, unless she was made perfect.

The same for Purgatory-- how can imperfect souls enter a perfect place (Heaven)? Answer: they can't until they have been perfected, or purified.

Anyway, it is obvious to me that we can't get into Heaven by our own works. I think the gist of our requirements were summed up by Jesus when He said: "I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (John, 13:34-35)

I take that to mean, if we do that-- if we really do love and take care of one another-- then we will most likely never break the other commandments.

I, too, think that hippie punching is endorsed in the Christian belief system. I mean, if we are to "render unto Caeser..." and all that, then we should also render unto hippies the punching they so richly deserve.

Call me crazy, but I just don't see that as violating the Golden Rule.

I like to think of Salvation and the role of the Law with the following parable that I came up with a few years ago.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Kingdom of G-d is like a plateau in Utah. It rises hundreds of feet into the air and on top of this plateau, the Children of G-d reside in relative safety and security. To keep His children safe, G-d has established a fence around the edge of the sheer cliff in order to create a barrier between the safety of the top and a nasty fall into absolute destruction. Understand that "The Fall" is not G-d's punishment. The Fall is a result of human stupidity.

This fence is called The Law. It is the boundary G-d has established to show us what is right and what is wrong. The penalty for crossing this boundary is certain death.

Now the fence is a good thing. It keeps His people safe by showing them where the edge is. However, it has another side-effect in that it also draws His children's attention. They walk up to the fence, touch it, prod it and see how close they could get to it without paying the penalty. Sometimes people, in their foolishness, push too hard, and fall over the edge. This side-effect is not good.

His people also have a need. The desert is hot. It's dry, dusty wind courses over the plateau. The sun scorches everything in its view. His people, while safe, live in misery because of this need.

In His abundant grace and mercy, G-d provides for their need. In the center of the plateau, he provides a fountain. A beautiful, ornate fountain flowing with life-giving water to quench His people's thirst. To provide relief from the blazing sun. To wash away the dry desert dust and make them clean again.

This fountain is Yeshua (Jesus).

The side-effect of this fountain was considerably better than the side-effect of the fence. As people notice the fountain, an amazing thing happens. They are drawn by its beauty and by the life-sustaining water it provides. One-by-one they leave the fence and wander into the middle of the plateau to the fountain. As more and more people discover the fountain, they begin to play in the waters. The sound of their frolicking attracts more and more people until nearly everyone is in the center of the fountain, playing and celebrating their deliverance.

My question now is this. Is the fence now no longer needed? Is it now irrelevant and should it be taken down? Personally, I say no. The "Fountain" didn't come to abolish the "Fence", but rather to provide for the needs if G-d's people. The Fence, while perhaps not as noticed or necessary as it once was, still serves a vital role. It still demarks the boundary between safety and destruction. "Youngsters in the Faith" still need to know where the edge is until they are mature enough to fully embrace the Fountain.

That said, the fence should no longer be our main focus. Our focus is on, and should be on, our Deliverer and His precious Deliverance. If we embrace the "Fountain", we are automatically within G-d's protection and plan for our lives.

Hazel wrote, "Also, what about those who do great things for the world without doing it for God, like, say, a few founding fathers who were technically Deists?" You are wrong!!! Our founding fathers were not Deists, but did try to use words that would bring together Christian faiths instead of split them apart. Just look at actual quotes from George Washington specifically mentioning Jesus Christ, "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it." - George Washington To the Chiefs of the Delaware Indian tribe, who had brought three youths to be trained in American schools, May 12, 1779

Just two points here.

One is to agree with TerribleTroy. Damning all those who don't believe in a particular religion makes little sense. It would mean that one can be lost just because one is born into a different culture. It also devalues faith which is the only way to come to believe in the existence of God.

Two is a personal belief that God has a path for everyone to come to him and that no two are the same.

I agree with Intellectual Gorgon. And you can experience Heaven and Hell now. Try living your life rejecting the love of Jesus Christ and see what happens. Like the saying goes, there are no atheists in a foxhole. When you cry out for Jesus, he answers. You've already got Heaven. You just have to accept it. Through grace and prayer, will you be empowered to face temptations and recieve forgiveness for your sins. But, you have to ask.

Not trying to pick a fight, but I have a couple of factual quibbles with previous posts.

"One thing that always bothered me was that most sects of organized religion preach that if you beleive in thier specific interpetation you will go to "heaven", and all others will go to hell."
Nt really. By "sects" I'm assuming you mean different subsets of a religion, since that is essentially what the word means. Baptists (for example) don't believe that Presbyterians are headed to hell. You may find one or two nutters who will say this, but it's not a generally held belief among any mainstream Christian group. Same goes for Muslims or Jews (don't know much about Eastern religion, so I won't comment). Sunnis don't think Sufis are headed to hell, and Orthodox Jews don't think Conservative Jews are headed for hell. Things change up a little once you start discussing their views about other religions, but the term "sect" implies intra-religion.

"From the admittedly limited research I've done, it seems there are two "main" Protestant divisions. In a nutshell, one contends humans can attain salvation and one says it's G-d's to give. I've come to accept the second one." That's not really an accurate view of Arminianism. Arminianism teaches that salvation is a gift of God, but that it is our choice to freely accept or reject that gift through free will. God provides what is called "common grace" (i.e. grace available to all humans) that gives us strength sufficient to the task of choosing him, therefore we have no excuse not to. Calvinism, the other main protestant view, takes the position that free will is essentially an illusion. God chose who would accept and reject him before the foundations of the world (called predestination) and gave them grace sufficient to make that choice. No mainstream protestant group teaches that you can "attain" salvation on your own.

Ok, those quibbles aside, back to the real issue. I think a previous poster hit on something in describing hell as separation from God. II Thessalonians 1:9 talks about sinners being "shut out from the presence of the Lord" while II Corinthians 5:9 talks about believers being "at home with the Lord". Do you really think Richard Dawkins would enjoy or even accept the eternal companionship of God? It wouldn't be heaven to him even if he was allowed in. This is not to say that there isn't an aspect of physical suffering to hell, but it may be that the descriptions of a lake of fire, torments, etc are figurative rather than literal. In fact, there may be signifigance in the fact that the word "torment" is used rather than torture. Torment can have a physical or mental component, while torture is usually exclusively used to mean physical pain.

This question has often bothered me. Honestly, and I know this answer won't satisfy most people, to me it comes down to this. God is all-loving and all-just (I John 4:9-10, Deuteronomy 32:4). I cannot believe that such a God has not used his perfect balance of those attributes to consider this more fully than I can, and come to a wise conclusion. Therefore, all I can do is act like everyone else is hosed (just in case), but simultaneously rest my hopes for them in the love and justice of my God.

One is to agree with TerribleTroy. Damning all those who don't believe in a particular religion makes little sense. It would mean that one can be lost just because one is born into a different culture. It also devalues faith which is the only way to come to believe in the existence of God.

Well, as far as Judeo-Christian teaching goes - only some are saved. Look throughout the OT. G-d saves some and others are destroyed. In the NT, it's also clear that not all are going to be saved and much of the reason is cultural.

"Fair" is a human concept. We don't think it's fair that some are not and cannot be saved. However, that's where trusting Him is tested. Do you accept His Way? Or do you say, "This is what's fair, so it has to be."

I'm not particularly interested in your answer, but not because I don't think it has merit. More to the point, I think it's something you have to ask and answer in your heart. If you do not find His Way "fair" and reject it in favor of your way, then you may have answered your own question (in a three degrees of separation way).

EE,
I appreciate your clarifications. I didn't mean to imply Arminianism is solely mad-made salvation. Rather, my point was to give a 10,000 ft view to show the difference, just as your view of Calvinism is from 10,000 ft and neglects some finer points.

What is more important? To follow the requirements, rituals, and dogma of whatever organized religion you believe to be the correct one or to be a good person and live a good life, which is, after all, the point.

#16 - Posted by: on June 25, 2008 01:38 PM

I never said all founding fathers were Deists. George Washington was Christian, but Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were more influenced by Deism than anything else. Jefferson cut and pasted pieces of the Bible to where he believed they belonged, and Franklin wrote in his Autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands ... It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist"

To say that there is any other way to Heaven, other than through the Christian faith (Jesus) would be incorrect. You're calling Jesus a liar. 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No person comes to the Father, but through me."

As to the issue of being born into the wrong culture. Christian scriptures indicate that "Hell", or separation from God as I favor it, is reserved for those who actively reject God. Therefore, one who is never introduced to Christ isn't condemned for rejecting him. Otherwise, they're judged on the merits of their life and attitude towards others, is the implication I've always read into things.

As to the issue of being born into the wrong culture. Christian scriptures indicate that "Hell", or separation from God as I favor it, is reserved for those who actively reject God. Therefore, one who is never introduced to Christ isn't condemned for rejecting him. Otherwise, they're judged on the merits of their life and attitude towards others, is the implication I've always read into things.

#25 - Posted by: Geod on June 25, 2008 02:22 PM

I've always been interested by this train of thought. The stickler for me becomes what is the point of the Great Commission? Why should we go "into all the world to preach the Good News" if they are "de facto saved" in their ignorance of the truth?

Just stick with Bill and Ted's "Be excellent to each other, and party on dudes" and you can't go wrong.

@#7: I know it was obvious, but I'm still pissed you stole my post.

I knew a guy that grew up in a largely Amish community - though he was a Methodist himself. Many years ago when he was young he somehow got roped into driving a group of Amish ladies to a town hall sort of affair. As they rode along the ladies got into a discussion of whether or not it was a sin to ride in a car. One of the ladies, who was the eldest and the queen bee of the group, had stayed out of the conversation until she made the final pronouncement that put an end to the argument: she said "I suppose it's alright to ride in a car if you really have to be somewhere. But that fellow that's driving is sure going to hell".

My point? None. It's just a funny story.

A loving God does not torture individuals for eternity. A loving God gives individuals freedom of choice; they make their own decision on where they spend eternity, based on whether they accept or reject Him.

To say that there is any other way to Heaven, other than through the Christian faith (Jesus) would be incorrect. You're calling Jesus a liar. 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No person comes to the Father, but through me."
#24 - Posted by: spoonhead on June 25, 2008 02:19 PM

+1

Oh, and for the record: God condemns no-one to Hell. We condemn ourselves to Hell by willingly rejecting His Son.

Note, the key term is "willingly". Those who never know Christ during their time on Earth will be judged by the merit of their actions when they die.

The only sure way of going to heaven is to vote for Me.

The only sure way of going to hell in a hand basket is to vote for me--is what my husband meant to say.

FrankJ, you certainly have asked a difficult question that people much smarter than I am have been wrestling with for ages. If there were an easy answer to that question that was readily accepted than this life would require very little faith. I view our mortal existence as a trial of our faith and getting the answer to the question you pose is part of that trial. I have confidence that I have figured it out and while I can share insights into what I have discovered, it is up to everyone to figure it out for themselves. I can teach my children to the best of my ability what I know, but in the end they have to find out for themselves what is true. I also know that the Lord in his wisdom and mercy has a way for everyone to have the opportunity to hear His Gospel and either accept or reject His mercy and grace. Regardless of when or where we were born, He has a plan that will allow everyone that opportunity.

I really like the book The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. It is an allegory that I think really captures how it is up to us where we end-up. I highly recommend it if you are looking for the answer.

I also think it is a combination of grace and works that lead us to the Lord. I do not believe that we can do anything on our own to save ourselves and we rely totally upon Christ and His grace to save us. But, I think accepting that Gift requires more than just saying it. I believe it requires effort on our part to “deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me” (Matt 16:24) I believe this is the character development that is required to really accept Christ and His gift of Grace. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said: “What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say.” There is more to character development than simply declaring it.

While commenting on a posting on a web site is not the way in my humble opinion to share what I have found, if you are interested I would be happy to share additional information with you. In the end though, it is for everyone to find their own way to Christ and the Lord will provide an opportunity for everyone to get there. The final book in the Chronicles of Narnia is a good allegory showing that in the end we will likely find what we are looking for.

#12
What's the matter Peasant? No "o" on your keyboard? This is not a PC blog. You can actually use the term God. PC crap annoys me. I bet it annoys God too. If God exists.

You can count me in with those who believe that "damnation" is most likely a permanent separation from God, based upon your earthly actions.

This begs the question "What does someone like Richard Dawkins care about being separated from a God he never knew?"

The answer to that would seem to be that, upon death, Mr. Dawkins (and all the rest of us) will be made fully aware of the true majesty, beauty, and power of Almighty God.

Once you are privy to that, how horrible it would be to be pulled from it forever... to spend eternity contemplating what you have lost.

Kinda sobering... to me, anyway.

Echo 5 Alpha:

He exists.

#15
You too Tim? Please don't be afraid to actually spell God. You won't end up in hell for doing so.

Just consider me the anti-PC police.
Semper Fidelis

Echo 5,
Some people of the Jewish persuasion out of reverence for the name of God do not spell out the word God. They will hyphenate it. Its not being PC, in those cases. They just choose not to write out the name of God as it is held in the highest esteem.

#24 and #31

What if it turns out that Jesus was a liar? Where does that leave us?

Echo5a,

The question is, can we accept as true what Jesus [God the Son], claimed? The most conclusive evidence establishing the deity of Christ is the historically verifiable resurrection. The apostle Paul wrote that Jesus "was declared with power to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead." (Romans 1:4) If the resurrection of Christ is true, then it is possible and, indeed, logical to believe all His claims and miracles including His assertion of the complete validity of the Old Testament. They would be what one would expect from God.

The primary reason that Jesus is the only way to God is that He forgives sin and offers eternal life, (John 10:28) something that the founder of no other major religion has claimed to do. Think about that!

#40 - Posted by: spoonhead on June 25, 2008 04:08 PM

If you cannot spell God out of reverence, you should never utter it out of reverence either. Reverence is not in the spelling (or not) or in the utterance. It is in the context. It seems to me that it is more irreverent to allude to God by misspelling God. Besides, is the term God not more of a Title than a name? Yahweh anyone?

Echo5a,

First I'm not a Jew. Secondly the Jews, more of the conservative/orthodox don't even say the word "God" rather the word Hashem.
And Yahweh, well its Yhwh for them. (again with the reverence issue)

The primary reason that Jesus is the only way to God is that He forgives sin and offers eternal life, (John 10:28) something that the founder of no other major religion has claimed to do. Think about that!

#42 - Posted by: spoonhead on June 25, 2008 04:20 PM

Actually, the claim is that he paid the price for our sins. And because of that there is forgiveness. Yes, I am aware what is written in the texts of the Old and New Testament books. I have read the Bible cover to cover at least twice. Something many who profess Christ cannot claim.
And "historically verifiable resurrection?" I have yet to see anything that I would call historically verifiable resurrection.

Echo 5a (post #41):

The problem with Jesus being a liar is that His disciples died for him. I would assume that if He was lying, they would've figured it out. They did spend a few years with the guy after all. The majority of them died very painful deaths (http://www.direct.ca/trinity/disciples.html). These men had reason to believe in Jesus. They didn't think he was lying.
Now I know you could make the argument that all the disciples were deceived....but Jesus would have to be an amazingly good liar to convince those men to suffer excruciating deaths for Him. And these men weren't nutjobs. They were fishermen, doctors, Pharisees, etc.

I think it is pretty simple. "hell" per se, is only what you create and YOU face your own consequences in the afterlife. In other words, I think that in the afterlife you live and see the consequences of all your actions, good and bad and their effects on people. If you caused pain, you will live the pain of your victim, that is hell. If you did good things, you also experience the positives of those deeds. So it isn't all or nothing... it is everything.

Echo5A,
Please refer to the works of Josephus a Jewish historian during that time period.
The Roman historian Tacitus...and others.

But I'll let you do the leg work on that.

echo,
Thank you for your input. I think I'll continue in my way, though, since I try to make my best effort to revere G-d. If it bugs you, go punch a hippie. You'll be happy because you vented. I'll be happy because a hippie was punched.

Seriously, though, I do it to remind me that when I am in the topic, I should always pause to ensure I stay on the path. Too often, when we discuss religion, we let personal stuff slip in and it clouds the discussions. For me, it helps filter out "RTP."

I'm a student at King College (king.edu), a highly acclaimed Christian foundation. I've done a lot of long thinking and debate and discussion on this topic, and in regards to heaven and hell, I believe that heaven is infinitely desirable and hell is infinitely undesirable. However, I think that our senses of pleasure, pain, and worldly emotion will be eliminated. I think heaven can be likened to God's capability of omniscience.
In hell, whether there is fire or not is beside the point. The worst part about hell is the incapability to know God for eternity. The fire, if there is any, will pale in comparison to this. (Hell might be what atheists believe happens when you die.)
Back in the Old Testament, I don't know if people would have understood what oblivion was, so it seems reasonable to use fire as an allegory since very few people like being on fire.
In regards to the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism, I think that no matter what, a belief in Christ as your Savior is going to make you want to do good deeds and live your live as he wants you to regardless, but salvation is independent of individual actions since every sinner can be forgiven.

I'm a student at King College (king.edu), a highly acclaimed Christian foundation. I've done a lot of long thinking and debate and discussion on this topic, and in regards to heaven and hell, I believe that heaven is infinitely desirable and hell is infinitely undesirable. However, I think that our senses of pleasure, pain, and worldly emotion will be eliminated. I think heaven can be likened to God's capability of omniscience.
In hell, whether there is fire or not is beside the point. The worst part about hell is the incapability to know God for eternity. The fire, if there is any, will pale in comparison to this. (Hell might be what atheists believe happens when you die.)
Back in the Old Testament, I don't know if people would have understood what oblivion was, so it seems reasonable to use fire as an allegory since very few people like being on fire.
In regards to the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism, I think that no matter what, a belief in Christ as your Savior is going to make you want to do good deeds and live your live as he wants you to regardless, but salvation is independent of individual actions since every sinner can be forgiven.

Echo 5, Some people of the Jewish persuasion out of reverence for the name of God do not spell out the word God. They will hyphenate it. Its not being PC, in those cases. They just choose not to write out the name of God as it is held in the highest esteem.

#40 - Posted by: spoonhead on June 25, 2008 04:08 PM

That is it exactly. It's not some "PC-police action" sort of thing. In fact, I am the most non-PC person I know.

I am a Messianic Jew. In Jewish thought, a name is not merely an arbitrary designation, a random combination of sounds. The name conveys the nature and essence of the thing named. It represents the history and reputation of the being named.

Because a name represents the reputation of the thing named, a name should be treated with the same respect as the thing's reputation. For this reason, G-d's Name, in all of their forms, are treated with enormous respect and reverence in Judaism.

Jews do not casually write any Name of G-d. We aren't prohibited from writing the Name of G-d per se; only prohibited from erasing or defacing a Name of G-d. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of G-d casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better.

The practice stems from the commandment not to erase or deface the name of G-d from Deut. 12. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over the promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the local deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to our G-d. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy any holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of G-d.

"Back in the Old Testament, I don't know if people would have understood what oblivion was, so it seems reasonable to use fire as an allegory since very few people like being on fire."

Best line in this entire discussion.

Perhaps you might find some useful information at www.whataboutjesus.com

Sorry this is so long guys! I have been working on it in between helping my daughter learn to write her name and just keep adding to it!

Echo I was wondering the same thing (about G-d). I was hoping it was a show of respect/reverence (we recently visited the Dead Sea Scrolls.. amazing!) because I can't stand that PC stuff either. Our family is adopting and I used to visit a blog that finds God "offensive" (which offends me!) and they write it the same way. I refused to do it and they kicked me off!

Moving on....I obviously don't have all the answers but can share my experience. I was raised with a lot of "religion" and it confused me. After our first baby I wanted to raise my kids with the answers I didn't have. So we went to a non-denom church and dove into the Bible. Sad to say after years of religion I didn't have the basics down: God is good, perfect, and holy. We are not. It is "the problem of sin". Our sin separates us from Him (a holy God cannot overlook sin). The 10 Commandments are His standard, and are to be used like a mirror. They show us how sinful we are (when we look at ourselves truthfully). The Bible says if you break one, you break all. We can say "I'm a good person" all we want (usually in comparison to others) but we're not the judge. God looks at our heart and thoughts, too. So sin needs to be punished, and Satan thought he had won. Nope! God had a plan through the work of the cross (Jesus..the ultimate super hero!!!! as my son says.) We can't save ourselves. Good works cannot save us but once we put our faith in Him they become a part of our life and service (I can put in a lot of Scripture here but this is already very lengthy!). Christianity is unique in that it is not works-based. And if you think about it that makes sense. God is GOD, why should we take credit? He offers his Salvation to all. It's a free gift. That's the meaning of grace - "undeserved favor". Like an innocent man walking in the courtroom and paying the fine for my crime. And isn't that just like God, too? Of course He would make a way (THE way!) because He loves us.

So Frank I know that doesn't always make sense to us (my husband always gets mad when he hears about someone like Ted Bundy confessing faith in Christ from prison - how could THAT guy get in???) Our pastor answered him this way - isn't it good WE are not God?! Remember the thief on the cross. A deathbed conversion? Heck yes! But a heartfelt one. God is merciful. He will deal with each of us fairly. Pray for those who don't know Him and be thankful He made a way for us all..the liar, thief, adulterer, and murderer. Maybe instead of wondering what exactly Heaven and Hell are like (we know one is awesome, the other awful), whether or not anything is in between (I've not found anything in Scripture to point to that, anyone else?) and whether or not it's fair - maybe we're just supposed to trust God to handle all of the details and rejoice if we and those we love have accepted Him. If not, tell them about Him. Someone once said we should be thankful God DOESN'T deal with us fairly or we'd all go to Hell! The same person said that's the beauty of grace...it's infuriating sometimes!

I tell my children all the time if you don't know what the Word of God says, you can be deceived! Satan's greatest ambition is NOT to make us all murderous maniacs (although I'm sure he doesn't mind) but to KEEP US FROM THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN RESCUE US. He is a liar. He will promote your pride, present you with false ideas and confusion, fill you with doubt - all in an effort to keep you from Christ so you can share in his fate (eternal separation from God....HELL). So I guess the real ? for all of us is..what are we going to do with Jesus? We all have to decide. I agree it goes way beyond belief (even the devil believes) and results in a transformed life. Thankfully he helps us and we don't have to clean ourselves up first! We are all works in progress, and I for one sure am glad because BOY do I mess up a lot!

One last thing (will this lady ever shut up???) I once heard a young pastor say this: There is no other god or prophet who has ever walked the earth and claimed what Jesus has (that He is the ONLY way!) So..what are you going to do? Say no thanks and hope that he was a madman or a liar? Me, I'm not a gambling man. I'd rather believe He is who He says He was! If I'm wrong, nothing will happen. But if I rejected Him and was wrong, the consequences are eternal and I deserve what I get. The Bible says you will find Him when you seek Him with all your heart. It was true for me! I pray the same for those of you still searching!

I don't know if this view has been posted as I haven't yet read all the comments, but...
You have an interesting point, there should be a middle ground between punishment and reward. When you are sent to hell(whatever you believe that is, I believe it's an eternal death, not eternal torture) you are punished for doing the work of Satan, not simply not believing in Christ. I believe that during the millennial period it will be plain obvious that there is a true Christ and only those serving Satan will deny it. This will mean that those who are sent to hell are those who serve Satan, not simply those of other religions(again, by that time it should be very clear). This means the others by default have accepted Christ. At that time a middle ground between serving Satan and not accepting Christ simply will not exist. I believe there will be rewards in Heaven based on your good works, and these rewards would fit your normal idea of rewards; not getting the reward does not mean you'll get punished. The rewards for good works however, remain separate from your salvation.

Echo I was wondering the same thing (about G-d). I was hoping it was a show of respect/reverence (we recently visited the Dead Sea Scrolls.. amazing!) because I can't stand that PC stuff either. Our family is adopting and I used to visit a blog that finds God "offensive" (which offends me!) and they write it the same way. I refused to do it and they kicked me off!

Most of us, at least in my community, don't find that usage offensive. We use our spelling as a sign of respect. It's more of a personal choice that we make.

Of course, given how offense prone people seem to be these days, your mileage may vary.

Thanks Rock Throwing and Tim...I posted before seeing yours. That's what I thought based on what both of you wrote!

(EGADS mine was long....and preachy....sorry again! I have serious editing issues!)

#57 is me, BTW...

#57 - JINX! Buy me a coke! (we posted at same time...okay I seriously need some caffeine).

My "offense" came from my previous experience at another blog (which I explained). I was just telling Echo that I wondered the same thing (but when you read their posts, it's clear they're not being PC).

No punching of hippies necessary here! I'll leave that to my husband to take care of for real offenses.

#s 7, 33, & 34: Bwahahahahahahaha!

That is all. Carry on.

My "offense" came from my previous experience at another blog (which I explained). I was just telling Echo that I wondered the same thing (but when you read their posts, it's clear they're not being PC).

I was actually referring to the bloggers getting offended by your useage.

While personally I can see why they were getting all hyper, banning you is hardly the best way to handle that situation, especially since you don't seem to be Jewish (I think?) and therefore are not obligated to our rules.

At the end of the day, it's just a personal choice, nothing more.

Oh hi Tim. I misunderstood (sorry). The blog that kicked me off was absolutely doing it in the name of being PC. I understand the topic can be divisive and the host wanted to keep it civil (and related to adoption only) but people were getting kicked off just for mentioning God (for example: I pray to God we get our paperwork done or we feel God had led us to adoption.) Even general statements like that were being attacked. I had never seen that before (but then again I don't get out much). I was kicked off for defending someone and refusing to write G-d as if it were a dirty word (that's how they made me feel). I completely understand why others do it. I think that's amazing (and it reminds me not to use His name casually, but always in the highest regard.) Thanks again.

sorry...not being clear (again). I meant to say I understand why Jewish people do that. The owner/bloggers at the adoption site were not Jewish, they just didn't want anyone bringing up God for any reason.

UGH! Time for a break from the computer. I make no sense anymore.

Heaven and hell always seem like a bit of overkill to me. You can only do so much good or evil in a finite life, yet you're to be tortured for infinity. Not exactly justice in an earthly sense.
Furthermore, I think the concept of hell is a great wrecker of faith.....if creates a reason for belief which is no more then fear of the afterlife. When two persons are both doing good works, which one is more moral? The one that does them due to its the right thing to do for him, or the one that believes that if he doesn't, hell awaits him in the afterlife.

In the end, doesn't matter...I don't think anyone here knows for sure, interpretation of scripture or not.

Joe

spoonhead: Done the legwork on the Roman historians.

Tacitus was writing in the early second century. The younger Pliny was a correspondent of Tacitus', and later ran into a few Christians in his province Bithynia. Neither Pliny nor Tacitus were Christians; Pliny, at least, got his information by asking the Christians their own side of the story, possibly also by leafing through the Gospel of Mark. Occam's Razor says that Tacitus would have done about as much work on the subject. Neither of them claim to have done any real research into this then-despised sect.

As for Josephus, I'll let you do the leg work on the "Testimonium Flavianum" and how reliable THAT is.

There really isn't enough external evidence.

I would still be able to argue that Jesus was born and crucified, and "raised up" in some fashion for those who believe in him - mostly on the INTERNAL evidence (of the NT epistles, 1 Peter mostly).

I can't argue whether the Resurrection was physical and real for those who *don't* believe, though. I believe it was, but I have to admit that I believe this as a Christian and not as a historian.

As for hellfire, deathbed confessions and such: keep in mind that the "thief" who was crucified next to Jesus was more likely a bandit who robbed and slew Roman travellers. Our word is "terrorist". Our priest admits that deathbed confessions are valid but suspects that they only get you out of Hell, not Purgatory.

One perspective:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/06/short-answer.html

there's a letter collected somewhere that compares this whole thing to the notion that the faithful are citizens of Heaven, and while we are here we are ambassadors. When our time comes, we return to our homeland.

Or, if we defect we end up like Edward Lee Howard. [to save you time, he was the 1st cia intelligence officer to defect to moscow - notice the past tense: he outlived his usefulness to moscow]

Hey Sulamie,

Ah.. I misunderstood as well. That example seems rather... extreme to me. Like it or not, that particular useage is common vernacular in our society and to get all uptight about it is obsurd. Definately not the way to shine the light of Christian charity. Hehe. :)

Take care!
-- T

I didn't read every comment before this because there are just too many, but I'll just add to Intellectual Gorgon's post (#2).

God, being perfect, is just. Justice, as perfection, is indeed defined by God's character. Being just means that He cannot simply let those who reject Him into heaven. We are all born as sinners, deserving of eternal death (separation from God), because of being tainted by original sin.
I always think of it this way: God was not obligated to save His creation that chose to turn away from Him, but He still chose to set aside all the glory of heaven and become a man and die a brutally painful death to take the punishment for all we've done that's against God's character. Since God gave us free will (hence being made in His image; i.e. having the Imago Dei) He could not force us to accept this gift. Thus, those who choose not to accept it must endure eternal death. This is something I can only say with a heavy heart. I don't wish it on anyone, but my feelings cannot change Truth.
What Christians should be striving for is to match the sort of self-sacrificial Love that Christ showed when He sacrificed Himself for us. Part of that is being truly tolerant, which does not mean being pluralistic. It means being willing to give of yourself to people of all faiths, nationalities, etc., regardless of whether you agree with their beliefs. That is true tolerance.

What a wonderful discussion! I am with those who have written that as Our Heavenly Father (see? no offense about using His name, but plenty of offense to hypersensitive feminazis) is Holy, and cannot look upon sin, through His love and grace He sees us through the shed blood of our Risen Savior, who is "the way, the truth, and the life" and gave himself as propitiation for our (collective) sins. Also dittos to whomever explained that those who have not heard will not be held accountable. Questions? Read the book of Romans chapters 6,7,and 8 (chapter 7 covers the problem of why a redeemed person would continue in sin, and we all do). Also 1 Corinthians chapter 1 covers why this all seems illogical to non-believers.

BTW, did you all see the Pew Research study that reported that 21% of atheists believe in God? "http://religions.pewforum.org/reports"
Scroll down to the table "Conception of God"

Totally off topic but....Here are the rules, cut and pasted, from the adoption site I used to visit:

"We are here to discuss adoption, not religion. There are plenty of places where that is welcome, but it is not the focus here. Please do not pull threads off topic with religious discussion, please do not try to pull people into religious debate, please do not preach to anyone."

Fair enough! I never broke that rule and had no problem adhering to it. But what was happening was that any time someone made ANY reference to God (like examples I mentioned previously) they were being accused of breaking the rules. It was absurd. It was perfectly acceptable to cuss, etc. but when someone said "I thank God we were able to adopt our little boy" they were stoned (figuratively, of course). It was in this context that I first saw people write "G-d" - but it was explained to me privately that this was done so they wouldn't be accused of breaking the rules (not because they were Jewish.) I being the rebel that I am (not! haha!) got tired of them beating up people so I defended the mom who wrote the exact sentence above ("I thank God..."). She didn't preach, that sentence was just sandwiched in between describing her family's adoption journey. And they gave her heck for it. So I simply pointed out that the mere mention of God was NOT forbidden in the rules.

Well people responded with..."yeah but one thing leads to another and when you say God you might offend the atheist or someone who believes in witches blah blah blah". So I said that I resented the fact that they treated the mere mention of God as an offense and that I will not refrain from speaking of Him for anyone. I was banished, of course. But I'm glad.

I am not a femi-nazi (not sure if that was meant for me but I automatically think everything is my fault!) I am the complete opposite. In fact, I very much cling to my religion and guns thank you very much! But I AM hyper-sensitive so please go easy on me. I think I was just confusing and confused (no surprise there...I talk to a 9, 6, and 4 y/o all day so am a little out of practice w/adults - haha) Thanks for your grace everyone, I need it today (it has been one of THOOOSE days!)

PS - Cam we go back to being funny now and making fun of Obama??

hahaha - you beat me Corona! Thanks, SNL flashbacks are always a hit!

Perhaps, consider the Jewish idea --- People burn in hell for the sins they did until they are purified. Once purified, they move on to heaven. (Overly simplified, but that is the gist.)

Oh, dear Sulamie, I didn't mean you! I meant hypersensitive feminists would be upset that I referred to God as our Father in the masculine. Those people are out there. Sorry if I caused any offense. Except to feminazis. And hippies. And Bobama supporters....

Oh Granny..PHEW! So glad you didn't mean me! I told you I am not all "there" today (plus that would be a first as I'm much more accustomed to being referred to as a right-wing, Reagan-loving, Jesus freak - hahahaha!)

Except for the last paragraph, everything commenter #2 said was correct. However, Jesus describes Hell several times as a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the Book of Revelations mentions hell as being a fiery pit.

The Bible says that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23) and that "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). So, by your example, Frank, we've all done an awful thing - rebelling against God - and by that we deserve to die. It is only through Jesus (not by doing good works) that we can be saved. Why can't God save us anyway? Because he is a just God, and doing so would be unjust. Why does he have to be just: why not just be all lovey-lovey? Because God could not be a good God if he loved and/or accepted treachery, violence, cruelty, hypocrisy, etc. So, while we deserve to die and go to hell, God in his mercy and grace sent his son Jesus to Earth to die for our sins so that we may one day be with him in heaven.

So you see, it's Heaven or Hell because we all deserve Hell, but God has provided us with salvation if we accept it. We are not all somewhat good people like in your example, we are sinners who deserve to die. Praise our Lord Jesus for giving us another option.

If you want to learn more abut the nature of God read His law.
There is no hell. God's will is to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Sinners will burn. Once and for all. Not eternally. God isn't satan, but at the same time He cannot have His Kingdom and sin at the same time. The two are incompatible.

The basis of any religion is to create a better society.

Rather than viewing it in an astral plane, why not look at the physical intent.

The ten commandments are not the key to heaven, rather they act as a guide to a society that respects their neighbors, and enables no MAN/WOMAN to determine your destiny.

Humility is the first virtue, recognizing that you are not the sole fountain of truth is the first lesson, and that no manmade government is the ultimate authority in regards to justice.

Respect is the second, do not tresspass on your neighbors livelihood, and he/she will not tresspass on yours, ideally! Which brings me to the last virtue.

Forgiveness, who would want to be thinking about the person that did wrong to them as you are dying. It is no longer of consequence, and your last thought is I HATE HIM/HER. Personally I'd rather die thinking of my sons first word.

If there is an afterlife, that's just gravy.

Two words for ya'll: Universal Reconciliation. Google it.

Reading through here I'd like to thank EE for bring up free will. To me that has always been at the heart of Creation, Judiaism and Christianity. God created us with free will but he wants us to do his will. When we don't there are repercussions, not just burning (God's saacrifice of His only son saves us from that) but in this life. We are responsible for our actions. When we act wrongly, we pay for it. Unless gov't removes that responsibility from us. In which case all society pays for our collective actions over time or sometimes all at once. His law is perfect and self enforcing. We were created that way. It cannot be escaped.

Question for any Jewish readers. I have always thought of the word god as rather generic. As you can read I write it in reference to Him. I have never taken it to be His name. Is it His name? As a protestent I learned his name to be I _m (in tranlation of course). I have always marvelled at how perfect in logic and openness that is. He invites us to think about Him. Logically being the only god He has no peers. He is the only one. Therefore all came after Him. He has no name, He Just Is. Now the big question. Since Jews are or were forbade from speaking his name how did or do Hebrew speakers speak of themselves? As in I'm tired or I'm going to work. Did or does this prohibition exsist in Hebrew and if so how do you get around it.

BTW I've always thought of that as a benefit of the prohibition. It would certainly force one to come out side themselves more.

Ralph, government will never be a source of redemption either here nor there.

It is only the will of the individual to correct past transgressions. In which god has no authority due to free will.

We will still have to deal with our own demons, regardless of even presidential pardon.

In your quest for "knowledge" I believe that you need to keep in mind that the the english contraction of I AM is latin based rather than hebrew. Your argument really isn't even noteworthy, but I just figured that I'd point that out to you.

Wow! 83 comments in just over half a day! I think you hit the motherload with this post. Good comments too. A few points:

1. The restraint of hell is Gods' last gift to his creatures who have rejected all his other gifts. Without restraints and all of eternity in which to practice our bad habits, vices and favorite corruptions it wouldn't take us long to sink so low that the devil himself wouldn't want to be seen with us!

2.There's a difference between mercy and grace. We receive Mercy when we DON'T get what we deserve. We receive Grace when we get More that we deserve. Not going to hell is mercy, going to heaven is grace. Mercy and Grace also apply to the condition of our life here. Forgiveness, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, things like that.

3. I believe those who never hear the gospel in this life will be judged as they judged others. Their own conscience will condemn them. I think the parable of the sheep and the goats applies there. "Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me!"

4. Is Jesus the risen Lord, Son of God and Savior or just a fine moral teacher whose advise we should follow (if it's not too hard)? The people of his time asked the same sort of questions. He forced them and he forces us to one of three conclusions; based on the amazing audacity of some of his proclaimations, "The Father and I are one!", "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up!", etc., I must conclude that he was either a lunatic on the level of a man who thinks he's a poached egg, a demonically inspired monster bent on misleading the world, or Lord, God and Saviour. I can lock him up for a madman, stone him as a false prophet or I can fall at his feet in humble worship. But let's not have any condesending nonsence about Him being a mere moral teacher. He didn't leave us that option. He didn't intend to. (paraphrase of C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity)

5. Dante would have fit in well at IMAO. If you read between the lines of the Divine Comedy you'll learn a great deal about politics in Italy during the 13th century. He sent all his political enemies to hell and all his friends to heaven, each with appropriate punishments or rewards. That gets lost in the grusome imagery but fortuneately I've got a copy with extensive footnotes. It was satire, lampoon and sarcasm. No wonder he called it a comedy!

God is constant and unchangeable. He has not only provided a plan for us so that we can return to him, but the guidelines to help us follow the plan. He also provided a Savior, who, to meet the demands of justice, died for our sins, thus bestowing the balm of mercy on ALL.

Thus all personkind (re. mankind for the PCites) has access through the Son to the Father. In order for us to return with honor however we must be obedient to the laws and principles of His plan. If he accepted sin and disobedience He would no longer be God.

To help us in this difficult task and to counter the forces working against us He has provided His Spirit as a gage. If we remain close to that Spirit, God can communicate to us. If we allow the world and the Destroyer to shout down that Spirit, we will be left on our own.

After this life we will be judged as to our faithfulness in obeying our Father's Plan and will be assigned our proper place with-in or with-out His kingdom. Those who refused to be obedient, who set at naught the things of the Spirit, who denied God, who preyed on His children or who worship false gods will be cast out of his presence . This will be Hell and it will be of our own design and creation.

Small aside. Anyone who doesn't believe in Satan and his minions is sadly and dangerously naive. That is one of his favorite tactics, make people discount and disbelieve in his existence and his manipulations so that they follow his silken cord right over the spiritual cliff. One of his other favorite mantras is "you can't ever be forgiven" or "you are too lost to find your way back". Don't ever believe that. Just like "this is the greatest country in the world-help me change it", it is a lie, designed to destroy all that is good in you.

Great posts. Good to see we can all play together nicely.

I've missed you Seanmahair!!!!

Keep in mind that there is a fair amount of skepticism on what Jesus of Nazareth actually said and claimed he was. All of the gospels were written a generation or more after he died, by people other than him. How reliably do you judge people's claims to remember exactly what was said in speeches and conversations, with no notes, from decades ago?

Your statements seem to indicate that you have a works-based view of Christianity. That's not how it works.

Salvation is a matter of God's mercy and his grace. Mercy is when you don't get what you deserve. Grace is when you get what you don't deserve.

The Bible says that we all, as sinners, deserve death and eternal seperation from God in hell. Since Christ died in our place, he took our punishment and offered us a place in his family. You accept and receive this gift by putting your faith in him and what he has accomplished on your behalf - you no longer trust in your own good deeds to earn you favor with God. If you are looking to Jesus and him alone to save you, you are no longer trying to work to impress God.

He takes away your sin (mercy), and gives you a place in Heaven (grace.) All you have to do is turn to him.

So if an axe murderer turned to Jesus just before he was executed, would he be in Heaven now? Yup. Past sins forgiven forever, and now a child of God.

Is there any in-between? No. The concept of Purgatory doesn't appear in scripture. Salvation is truly an either/or matter. Either you're trusting Jesus to save you, or you're not. Do I believe in degrees of punishment in hell and degrees of reward in Heaven? Yes, I believe there is evidence of that in the Bible. But when it comes to Heaven and hell, there is no choice "C."

As for hellfire, deathbed confessions and such: keep in mind that the "thief" who was crucified next to Jesus was more likely a bandit who robbed and slew Roman travellers. Our word is "terrorist". Our priest admits that deathbed confessions are valid but suspects that they only get you out of Hell, not Purgatory.

#66 - Posted by: David Ross on June 25, 2008 06:51 PM

But what did Jesus say to that terrorist who was crucified next to him? "Today you shall be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43.)

Not "purgatory."

I read all 90 comments so far!

Just wanted to put that out there.

Yes I guess you're right. In some ways I do believe in a "works based"view.

James 2: 20, 26

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
• • •
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I also believe that all men(read people)are subject to physical death due to the fall of Adam. With the Atonement (Jesus Christ's death upon the cross at Calvary)all mankind was granted salvation. He paid the price for our personal sins.

Eternal life however is a separate subject. In order to gain that and live with our Father forever we have to put our faith into action. In that way I guess we earn our place within our Father's mansion.

John 14: 2
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I tend to be literal not figurative. It is what works best for me. As long as the Spirit is not offended I feel pretty safe.

I must say how impressed I have been over everyones willingness not only to share but to be tolerant of different views and ideas. What a terrific discussion. Thanks Frank. It's been great.

#87. Thanks, it's good to be back.

#91 - You rock! (that's a lot of reading!)

About purgatory....Beo's last paragraph ( in #89) - I also can't find evidence of purgatory in Scripture. I was raised Catholic so that's what I was taught, but now that I have read the Bible I can't find anything. There is a great site w/lots of Biblical answers to questions like these: www.gotquestions.org.

Here is what it says about purgatory:
The very idea of Purgatory, and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus' death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus' sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins that indicates Jesus' death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

The same site/page has an explanation of what purgatory is (according to Catholicism) and what Scripture they point to as being evidence of its existence (1 Corinthians 3:12-15). I won't write it all out, but it's interesting. You just go to the site and type "purgatory" in the search box.

Just thought I'd share!

The most disturbing thing about the poll, as well as many of the comments here, is that 57% of Evangelical Christians said that other faiths could go to heaven. This shows an appalling biblical illiteracy, which is the biggest threat to the Church. The whole point, clearly stated throughout scripture, is that the problem is sin, all men are guilty, we need a savior to restore us, Jesus is he, the one and only, freely given. To recieve something, you have to accept it first. To accept salvation you must believe and turn away from the life that leads to distruction. We show our commitment by being baptized, as Jesus did before he began his work. Then we recieve the Holy Spirit to help us with the hard part of doing God's will. Salvation is not possible without a saving faith in Jesus Christ. A saving faith automatically results in good works, as God's Spirit live inside us.

Perhaps many of the people polled were thinking of people in other "Christian" religions. Catholocism, Mormonism, and the like are not Christianity, but many of the individual followers are possibly Christians because of their reliance on Jesus for salvation. We can only suspect them by their "fruits." Only the Father knows the state of their hearts and judges them accordingly.

#94 - "The most disturbing thing about the poll, as well as many of the comments here, is that 57% of Evangelical Christians said that other faiths could go to heaven."

Yes about the poll, and I agree - disturbing. Sadly this describes my entire extended family (although they identify themselves as Catholic - it's me who is the Evangelical.) But comments here? I have not seen many (if any) that are saying that. Most seem to agree Jesus is the only way, or they don't know. I better go do some re-reading just in case!

Sheesh here we go again (w/me not making sense!)

What I meant to say was that my family calls themselves Catholic (Christian) but they do not understand John 14:6 (so I guess technically they don't fall into that 57% because they're not Evangelicals).

UGH.

Oh and yes I agree - thanks Frank, this was a great subject!

88. Concerning the accuracy of scripture, particularly the gospels: Jesus (or Moses, or David, or the Prophets, etc.) didn't have a stenographer following Him around scribbling on a legal tablet in shorthand throughout His earthly ministry, but He had something almost as good and something much better.

The almost as good: was the oral tradition of people of that time. Paper was expensive. Most people couldn't read and write. So they developed good memories. The sort of mental tricks you see in books like "90 Days to a Better Memory" are centuries, even millenia old. Poets and bards routinely recited long, epic poems from memory for the entertainment of the well-to-do. (an iron age human I-pod, in a way). So Jesus' deciples had a better chance of preserving and recalling Jesus' words accurately than most of us today.

The much better: was the inspiration and guidence of the Holy Spirit. If the gospels aren't Devinely inspired then what does it matter if the words and events recorded there are accurate or not?

As far as the questions, 'Is what we have today the same as the original?' and, 'Is it accurately translated?' are concerned the answers are yes and yes. No book or manuscripts as old as the scriptures have even a fraction of the number of intact, reliable and complete texts. Any other documents from that era that had even 1/10th as many copies in existance would be deemed accurate beyond all doubt by any reliable scholar. It's only because of the uncomfortable nature of the gospels' message that so many people, for so many centuries have tried to dismiss it any way they can so as to not have to deal with the message itself. Sort of 'Don't like the message? Kill the messenger!"

When Christ walked the earth there were no "Christians". He invited and invites all people to "come unto me". I try very hard not to judge anothers religious commitment or beliefs. I have known Catholics who were grounded in their faith, who obeyed the commandments and loved the Lord and their fellow men. I have known Evangelicals who backstabbed members of their congregation and cheated on their spouses. And vice versa. There are good and bad in every group.

All we can do is pray, read the scriptures and ask for confirmation of that which we believe. I will guarantee you one thing though, those who preach hate whether it be racial, religious, cultural or ethnic will never be numbered among the righteous. They will be on the left hand and the Savior will say "I never knew ye".

Matthew was a tax collector, Paul a Roman Citizen bent on the extermination of the believers of Christ, Thomas doubted and Peter denied. Jesus Christ accepted them all, because they accepted Him. "Who am I to judge another, when I walk imperfectly...Lord I would follow thee" is where I want to be.

Before I say anything more, I will appologize to Tim and RTP for being so testy about their use of G-d. I, as Sulamie noted, also often see that among those who despise rather than revere God. I also want to ensure that you all understand that I have no intention of seeking to silence anyone, just to challenge. I say that something annoys me, because it does (mistakenly in this case it seems), but not to shut anyone up. I will often be the first to tell people that they do not have the right to not be offended. Too many these days have such thin skins it is a wonder they aren't constantly dripping blood.
That said:
Though I am more agnostic (fancy word that basically means ignorant) I am quite familliar with the Christian faith, and Joel #79, I think, nails it right on the head. He has boiled down exactly what the New Testament outlines as the way to salvation. It is nothing you do. It is nothing you are even capable of. Your ticket was bought and paid for in the death of Christ. The proof of His power over death is shown by the resurrection. That is the essence of the message. I just still harbor doubts myself. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. Maybe I spent too much time in my twenties with my nose buried in a Bible, but as time went on, the doubt grew. Regardless, if I were to consider myself a true believer again, that would be my take on the whole path to one's final destination.

seanmahair,
A couple of thoughts.
"When Christ walked the earth there were no 'Christians'." This is hardly an argument against the idea that Christianity holds some unique truths. Truths that have not yet been revealed are still true. Gravity did not start to operate only upon being identified and defined by Newton.

"He invited and invites all people to 'come unto me'." That is from Matthew 11:28. Try reading the verse preceding it. Jesus clearly states in it that no one knows the Father except through the revelation of the Son. In it's proper context, it is hardly a relativistic statement of universal acceptance. Christ delineates a very clear path to salvation, the narrow gate. (Matthew 7:13-14)

"I try very hard not to judge anothers religious commitment or beliefs. I have known Catholics who were grounded in their faith, who obeyed the commandments and loved the Lord and their fellow men. I have known Evangelicals who backstabbed members of their congregation and cheated on their spouses. And vice versa. There are good and bad in every group." Very true, but that is only a meaningful argument if "goodness" is the only criterion for salvation. Since scripture says that, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" and "by grace are ye saved through faith...it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast" that is hardly the Christian viewpoint.

Listen, as I said in an earlier post, this issue troubles me too. I genuinely hope and trust that God has a plan for all those who appear good in my eyes who are not part of his body. But, I do them no favors by letting that wishful thinking dictate my behavior towards them. If we do not attempt to witness to them in a loving and gentle, yet clear, way, we are doing them a disservice. If you saw a child dancing near a cliff, would you assume that they'll be fine on their own, or would you dash over and grab them at the risk of ruining their fun and making them mad? Hope for their salvation apart from faith in Christ, but don't let fear of being thought to be judgmental (the only real sin left in American society) keep you from making every effort to GUARANTEE their salvation through Christ.

WOW I can't get enough of this thread!

I agree with Seanmahair....I have seen many Catholics who love the Lord as well as people of every other denomination. Evangelicals certainly don't hold the market on that! My Catholic upbringing did not lead me to the Lord, but that doesn't mean others cannot find Him there. We're all one Body! I just wish my family could get past a few things so they can actually SEE Jesus. They have a lot of other "stuff" in the way (that has nothing to do with Catholicism). Oh and I wish they didn't think I was in a cult (when you're Italian and from Chicago, anything but Catholic is a cult - haha!)

echo,
I never took offense. I've come across other comments about it and kinda realized where you were coming from when you vented against "PC" stuff. On a related note, I noticed George Will does the same thing (spelling). Picked up on that about a year or two ago.

Now, you want really PC stuff that's Bible related? Ask scholars for dates and you get "BCE" and "CE" (Before Common Era and Common Era). When you ask what coincided with the start of the "Common Era," they stammer because they don't want to tie it to His birth. Good times.

"BCE" and "CE" are actually more accurate terms then BC and AD, because Christ wasn't born in 1 AD. So if you want to say "Augustus was born in 63 BCE" that's a more acurate term than using BC, because 63 years before Christ's birth was 67 BC, but by using BCE you are just saying "63 years before the year that we mark for the current dating system."

97. "If the gospels aren't Devinely inspired then what does it matter if the words and events recorded there are accurate or not?"

All religions claim to be divinely inspired, and yet they contradict each other on numerous points. If one wanted to still believe in divinity one could assume that finite beings can never truly understand the infinite and that the differences we see are the result of a bunch of blind people touching various different parts of an elephant and describing it differently.

"If the gospels aren't Devinely inspired then what does it matter if the words and events recorded there are accurate or not?"

Other possible options:

One can assume that Jesus was divinely inspired, but his followers were flawed mortal men who wrote the Christian bible in ways that Jesus would not have approved.

One can regard Jesus as not divinely inspired, but just a mortal man who was a good teacher. His teachings are worth studding for their own sake, but mistakes by his followers must be kept in mind when doing so.

Rock Throwing...

I agree. During a recent visit to a museum even my children wondered what happened to BC!!! I had never seen the BCE/CE thing until then. I homeschool and do not plan to change the way I teach it.

Though I am more agnostic (fancy word that basically means ignorant) I am quite familliar with the Christian faith, and Joel #79, I think, nails it right on the head. He has boiled down exactly what the New Testament outlines as the way to salvation. It is nothing you do. It is nothing you are even capable of. Your ticket was bought and paid for in the death of Christ. The proof of His power over death is shown by the resurrection. That is the essence of the message. I just still harbor doubts myself. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. Maybe I spent too much time in my twenties with my nose buried in a Bible, but as time went on, the doubt grew. Regardless, if I were to consider myself a true believer again, that would be my take on the whole path to one's final destination.

#99 - Posted by: echo5a on June 27, 2008 12:00 AM

You are in the same place as my sister-in-law. I sincerely hope and pray that you find your way back to Jesus. Your take on salvation is spot on. You're just 18 inches away from knowing it in your mind and embracing it with your heart.

It basically all boils down to Acts 16:29-31:

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

It's that simple.

This all hinges on the question of whether the heaven/hell idea is accurate in the first place. I don't believe it is. My own studies and experiences lead me to believe that the human experience does not persist as a coherent entity in the afterlife: your experiences, insofar as they are "valuable" in the cosmic sense, are subsumed into a collective repository (I hesitate to call it a consciousness) which is "recycled" into future human existence.

The closest analogue to heaven and hell in this process is that some experiences are not worth saving. These experiences go to hell, which is not somewhere that they're tortured and tormented, but more like a cosmic trash can where we throw things like... I don't know, dead baby jokes, and stuff people thought while smoking weed. Things that have no practical philosophical use at all.

Ultimately, in the end, it's not you the person that has eternal life. It's your ideas, your experiences, and your philosophies - so long as they weren't pointless. It's not about good or evil, it's about interesting and boring. Create, invent, expand, inspire... but don't waste your time agonising over the stupidity of whether you'll suffer eternally for throwing a water bottle out your car window.

The suffering of hell isn't actual torture. It's the recognition of precisely how much wasted effort there was in your lifetime. Whatever suffering you experience as a result is of your own making, and can't be blamed on anyone else. But in the end, it's not really about what ends up in hell... it's about what doesn't. What you did that was valuable and useful and worth saving.

If you honestly strive to live a good and honest life, that's all you need. Everything else is conjecture.

I tried to read all of the responses. I saw many "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," references, but no "repent" references. Deciding to believe in one particular religion, even Christianity and in Jesus, is not enough. To "believe" in Jesus is not just believing that he exists and is who he says he is, it means to believe in and put your trust in everything he taught. Repentance is the first step. Realizing that your sin is what is keeping you from Him and Heaven. Oh, the humility of it. Seriously. Now go back and read the posts about belief.

#101
I feel your pain. I am constantly having to defend my faith. I came from an Irish Catholic background and have joined "a cult". I also agree that if people just got out of their own way, they would be able to see Christ and the path to eternal life.

And Tim I agree it is simple.
ST MATTHEW
CHAPTER 22
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, atempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

It's just that simple.

104, 105 - Mike R. There have been many books writen seeking to uncover the 'historical' Jesus.
The Jesus they present all end up looking suspiciously like the author, wearing a robe and sandals.
The parts of His teaching they agree with they have no problem attributing to Him, lending it His moral authority.
The parts of His teaching they don't agree with they tend to dismiss as a later 'addition' to or 'corruption' of his teaching.
Best to take the whole thing as given and wait for the Spirit to enlighten our understanding.
'Seek (keep on seeking) and you will find; ask (keep on asking) and it will be given you; knock (keep on knocking) and the door will open'.

#110 - Liz. You're right!
Repentance is indispensable.
I heard a preacher on the radio this afternoon who made a clever point about that.
He said, "God will deliver you from your enemies, but He can't deliver you from your friends!".
The enemy he referred to was sin.
The friend he referred to was the sin we enjoy, the sin we're not ready to give up.
God can't deliver us from that!
Repentance must come first.
Once we reject sin, God can break the power of it over us.
If the old temptation come back again, remember that it's your enemy now and turn it over to God.

Concerning Catholics: I are one.
While in the service I once attended a wednesday night bible study at the base where I was training.
The chaplain asked one of the attendees to lead us in an opening prayer.
He prayed for quite a few good things, with many a 'Oh Lord' and 'Father God' thrown it and I nodded and added my 'Amen' and 'Yes Lord' where appropriate.
Then he said something that sent a chill down my spine, "and Oh Lord, Father God, have mercy on all the Catholics who are going to hell!".
I've never in my life heard a sermon from a Catholic priest that condemned any member of any other Christian denomination to hell merely for the sin of not being Catholic; is it really a matter of dogma in some churches that Catholics aren't considered Christians?
I know that in the middle ages the Catholic church had a virtual monopoly on religion in Europe, with attendant political power and had become corrupted by it.
The protestant reformation, led by brave souls like Martin Luthor and John Calvin was a necessary corrective, dispite the bloody wars and attrocities committed by both sides, kings and princes using religious desent as an excuse to grab land and power for themselves (Henry the 8th, for example).
But we've come a long way from the Spanish inquisition (No one expects the Spanish inquisition! Mhwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!).
Pope John Paul the 2nd worked hard for reconciliation between Catholics and other Christian churches throughout his papacy.
He also was greatly influencial in breaking the power of the Soviet Union over his homeland, Poland and the rest of eastern Europe.
Doesn't that count for something?
We recite the Apostles Creed every Sunday.
What is there in that proclaimation of faith that any Christian could object to?
Can't we all just get along?

I want to commend the commenters of this post. I have rarely been involved in a discussion on religion and beliefs that has not degenerated into vitriol. Thank you for your maturity and sensitivity. IMHO this is how "Christians"* are supposed to treat each other.

*If you're not Christian please don't be offended. I mean it in the nicest way possible.

Hello 4 of 7 - I am so sorry that happened to you. That is a shame. I had a similar experience when I met someone years ago who asked if I was a Christian. I said, "Yes, I'm Catholic." Their response was, "Ohhhhhhhh, you're not a Christian at all then!" I was SOOO confused! Then recently, an older gentleman who led our Bible study asked about my Dad, who passed away when I was in high school. He asked,
"Was he a Christian?" and I had the same answer. His reply, "Oh that's too bad." I took that to mean he didn't believe he was in Heaven and was SO upset! But it reminded me how flawed we ALL are, and that only God knows our hearts (again, I'm glad He's judge and not us!)

I have always understood that Catholicism is a denomination under Christianity. What bothers me is not that my family is Catholic, but that they are non-practicing Catholics who never attend church, have never read the Bible, believe all roads lead to Heaven, and yet condemn my family and I for "walking away from the faith" because we now attend a non-denominational Bible-teaching church. But little by little I am making them realize that we're not so scary (haha).

I like what someone else said - God made it simple for ALL of us! That's not to say the Christian life is always easy, but thankfully He gives us strength and help along the way.

Thanks for sharing everybody. This has been a hard week for my family (my 6 y/o has a mysterious lump doctors are concerned about) and it's been good to come here and be reminded of how good God is to have folks like you all around to chat and laugh with!

#114 My dear Sulamie,
My family and I will be praying for your little one. I believe there is nothing harder than having a sick child. I have reached an age where my children have begun having children and it has been a surreal experience. I would so rather do it for them, but in Gods wisdom he makes it so I can't. We don't learn that way. We learn from experience. The good news is that He will never give us anything we can't handle if we lean on Him.

Our family has had a challenging week as well. If you and your family would pray for us too we would appreciate it.

God bless you and yours.

Thank you so much Seanmahair...for your prayers, wisdom, and encouragement. Please know I will be sincerely praying for you and your family, as well.

PERHAPS SOMEONE ELSE ALREADY SAID IT, BUT CHRISTIANITY IS QUITE SIMPLE: BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED TO PAY THE PRICE FOR YOUR SINS, AND BE BAPTIZED, AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED. MARK 16:16. AS ST PAUL EXPLAINS IN ROMANS Ch 4 ABRAHAM WAS SAVED BY FAITH, NOT WORKS: HIS FAITH THAT GOD WOULD KEEP HIS PROMISES, AND HIS FAITH WAS "COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." THUS IT IS FAITH IN JESUS THAT MAKES ONE RIGHTEOUS AND LEADS TO HEAVEN, NOT WHETHER ONE DOES GOOD OR EVIL. ONE OF THE EARLY COMMENTERS SAID IT WELL--GOD GIVES US HIS LOVE, AND IF WE ACCEPT IT, WE ARE SAVED. IF WE TURN OUR BACKS AND WALK AWAY WE HAVE REJECTED GOD AND SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES. DOING GOOD, OR EVIL, IN THIS LIFE MAY BE A RESULT OF OUR DECISION TO ACCEPT GOD'S LOVE OR TO WALK AWAY FROM HIM. THE THEME OF THE BOOK OF JAMES IS THAT FAITH LEADS ONE TO DO GOOD WORKS, SINCE THE PERSON WHO LOVES GOD WILL LOVE GOD'S CREATION--OTHER PEOPLE. BUT, BEING GOOD DOES NOT GET ONE TO HEAVEN, SINCE SOME PEOPLE DO GOOD FOR REASONS OTHER THAN THEIR LOVE OF GOD. LIKEWISE, IF AN EVIL PERSON, EVEN A HITLER, HAS A TRUE DEATH-BED CONVERSION, CONFESSES HIS SINS AND TRULY REPENTS OF HIS SINS OUT OF LOVE FOR GOD,BELIEVES THAT JESUS DIED TO PAY THE PRICE FOR HIS SINS, ALL THE EVIL HE HAS DONE DURING THEIR LIFE IS FORGIVEN. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND: YOU SPEND ETERNITY WITH GOD IN HEAVEN, OR WITHOUT HIM IN HELL. THE BIBLE HAS PORTIONS WHICH CAN BE READ AS SUGGESTING THEIR ARE LEVELS OF HEAVEN, OR SOME SORT OF HIERARCHY. (IT SPEAKS OF THOSE WHO ARE "LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" FOR EXAMPLE). HELL IS USUALLY PICTURED AS A LAKE OF FIRE, LIKE LAVA. OTHERS THINK IT IS AN ALLEGORY FOR SUFFERING THE PAIN OF BEING WITHOUT GOD. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND: YOU SPEND ETERNITY EITHER WITH GOD OR WITHOUT HIM.

115 & 116 - Ditto!

seanquixote:
"The ten commandments are not the key to heaven, rather they act as a guide to a society that respects their neighbors, and enables no MAN/WOMAN to determine your destiny."

I wasn't saying they are the sole keys to Heaven. But they are His will. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

seanquixote:
"Ralph, government will never be a source of redemption either here nor there."

I said: "Reading through here I'd like to thank EE for bring up free will. To me that has always been at the heart of Creation, Judiaism and Christianity. God created us with free will but he wants us to do his will. When we don't there are repercussions, not just burning (God's saacrifice of His only son saves us from that) but in this life. We are responsible for our actions. When we act wrongly, we pay for it. Unless gov't removes that responsibility from us. In which case all society pays for our collective actions over time or sometimes all at once. His law is perfect and self enforcing. We were created that way. It cannot be escaped."

Yes, that's what I said.

seanquixote: "It is only the will of the individual to correct past transgressions. In which god has no authority due to free will."

The Holy Ghost plays a role in that for the believer.

seanquixote: "We will still have to deal with our own demons, regardless of even presidential pardon."

True.

seanquixote: "In your quest for "knowledge" I believe that you need to keep in mind that the the english contraction of I AM is latin based rather than hebrew. Your argument really isn't even noteworthy, but I just figured that I'd point that out to you."

Why so snarky here?
'I' is not of latin roots. Neither is 'am'. Perhaps contracting the two is. I don't understand your point and don't care about the etymology of 'I'm'.
I am aware that 'I'm' is a contraction but it means exactly the same thing. I was speaking from the assumption that Hebrew or the language they spoke then translated to now has a way of expressing a first person singular state of being. That seems a safe assupumption to me since God used it.

'I' is not of latin roots. Neither is 'am'. Perhaps contracting the two is. I don't understand your point and don't care about the etymology of 'I'm'. I am aware that 'I'm' is a contraction but it means exactly the same thing. I was speaking from the assumption that Hebrew or the language they spoke then translated to now has a way of expressing a first person singular state of being. That seems a safe assupumption to me since God used it. #119 - Posted by: Ralph on June 30, 2008 01:20 AM

I actually asked my Rabbi about this over the weekend. When G-d said "I AM" in response to Moses, it was indeed a statement of permanence. It's a common theme throughout the Old and New Covenant teachings. In the Old Testament, G-d is "I AM", in the New Testament, He is "Alpha Omega". He is saying that before time began, "I AM". After Heaven and Earth pass away, "I AM".

To the psalmist, in the midst of his own personal hell, G-d was "I AM". The Rock of Stability, Strength and Comfort. Outside of space, time, testing, and turmoil, "HE IS" and always will be.

Tim said: "The stickler for me becomes what is the point of the Great Commission? Why should we go "into all the world to preach the Good News" if they are "de facto saved" in their ignorance of the truth?"

Maybe someone already said this, but...Jesus was speaking to the remaining 11 disciples. THEY were the ones who were given the great commission. Try re-reading the NT and asking "Who is being addressed" and "How would I understand this if I came to it w/out any presuppositions?" as you go along. It's pretty eye-opening for me.

Wow, just finished reading all 120 posts. This thread rocks!!! And (as someone else said) a discussion of Christianity w/out flaming is wonderful. I really appreciate the posts from Jewish IMAOers. I would like to learn more about the Jewish faith. Anybody have a good resource to point me to?

FYI, I'm a conservative (well duh, of course I am, or I wouldn't be here), unchurched Christian, homeschooling stay-at-home mom of three (one is recovering from autism--www.generationrescue.com). Hubby and I started reading FrankJ in '03. Love ya', Frank (and SarahK too!)

Going back to Frankjs' original question about heaven and hell;

1st illustration: A man dies and arrives in Heaven. Everthing is beautiful. He's asked if he has any questions. He asks if he can get a glimpse of hell. He's shown a vision of a vast banquet hall. There's a feast in progress. All manner of delicious and perfectly prepared food is laid out on an endless table. All the damned are sitting on both sides of the table. Their only eating utensil is a pair of 6 foot long chopsticks. The feasters are trying every way they can to get any morsel of the food into their mouths but the chopsticks are just too hard to manage. Every scraps flops down or gets flung away before it reaches their mouths. The scene is one of endless frustration and unfullfilled desire.

The vision ends and he's invited to a feast at Gods' palace. There he sees the same endless table, the same fabulous food and the same 6 foot long chopsticks. But here the saints are using the chopsticks to pick out choice morsels to feed to the person across the table from them, and all is loving kindness, good will and joyful companionship forever.

2nd illustration. Imagine every ornery, rebellious, selfish, back stabbing, trouble making r*t b*str*rd you ever met or ever heard of; from the beginning of time to the end of time; all gathered into one place at the same time. Add to the mix a crew of fallen angels, the least of whom would make Freddy Kruger look like the Pillsbury Doughboy. You wouldn't need fire and brimstone to make a hell, because where ever this mob was would BE hell!

Just a thought. Some wit once wrote, "hell is other people". He might have been right!

3rd illustration: Imagine it's judgement day. Every soul who ever lived is gathered in one vast space. God appears. He smiles down upon the crowd and says, "Hey! I love everybody, and Jesus died for your sins, so I'm letting everybody in! Your all invited! Welcome!" The Pearly Gates appear and the whole mob swarms in, whooping and hollering, dancing and high-fiving. When the last soul crosses the threshhold, God nods to St. Peter and he closes the gate and locks it. Every soul hears the click and stops and looks at God. God smiles again, but this time with just a hint of steel behind it and says, "Now that you're in My kingdom, there's a simple rule you should know. You can do any good thing you want to, but you Can't say or do One, Single, Solitary evil thing EVER again!".

I imagine that a fairly large percentage of that crowd wouldn't be able to move a muscle or say a word from that point on, since every desire of their heart is turned to evil continuously. What would be Heaven to those whose hearts yearn to be taught of God would be a hell for those whose self-will refuses to be broken. It all comes down to what's inside us.

Wow, just finished reading all 120 posts. This thread rocks!!! And (as someone else said) a discussion of Christianity w/out flaming is wonderful. I really appreciate the posts from Jewish IMAOers. I would like to learn more about the Jewish faith. Anybody have a good resource to point me to?

....

#122 - Posted by: veritasvincitbaby on June 30, 2008 10:51 PM

Howdy veritasvincitbaby,

The congregation I attended when I lived in Minnesota has a really good site with a lot of great information on what we are, what we believe and how to get more information. It's worth taking a look.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the link, Tim! That's exactly the sort of starting point I was hoping for. Cool!

Hi Veritasvincitbaby -

I am a stay-home mom of 3, also (soon 4, by way of adoption) and also a h'schooler (although according to the law of this land what I'm doing is now illegal!) If they don't overturn that, we'll be joining thousands of other families in a mass exodus from the state!

Back on topic....I have always understood the call of Mark 16:15 to be for all believers. I don't think we're all called to be missionaries, and of course we're all gifted in different ways, but I do believe that when an opportunity presents itself we can (and should) share our faith. My own salvation came to be because someone (several someones) with a willing heart reached out to me and planted seeds that would eventually take root and grow. God doesn't need our help to save people - but He chooses to work through us. I find that so amazing!

Well anyway I always enjoy meeting other moms on here so.....hello!

Oh and thanks for the prayers 4 of 7!

Sulamie, I totally agree w/you re: sharing our faith w/those we come in contact with. We should "...always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (I Pet. 3:15). I love that whole passage (v. 8-22)--it tells us how to live!

I was just addressing Tim's question about the need to "go into all the world" to "save" those who haven't heard the Good News. I do believe God calls some individuals to missions, but I don't agree w/those who teach that the great commission means that each of us is responsible to travel the world looking for people who haven't heard of Jesus. Anybody remember Keith Green and the Last Days Newsletter (early 80s)? Major guilt-trips for all who didn't do foreign missions! I saw a lot of people who definitely weren't called to missions try to personally fulfill the great commission, and all they did was lose their faith and present a really warped picture of Christianity to those they came in contact with.

Hi veritasvincitbaby!

I wasn't saying that it was every Christian's responsibility to be missionaries. G-d, in His infinite wisdom, has imparted each of us with specific gifts.

As Paul wrote in Eph 4:

"It was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

I was mearly arguing with the idea that there were multiple ways to reach G-d. The Bible is very clear that there is only one Way, and that Way is through the sacrifice of the Lamb Yeshua (Jesus).

If people who die in ignorance were given special consideration, then it would be a disservice to talk to them about the things of G-d. The Gospel would not be a gift. It would be a burden. That is not how Christ would have it.

Verita and Tim -

Yes and Yes!!! Those were the EXACT Scriptures I was thinking of but didn't have time to look up - thanks!

That is all, have a good one!

Tim, I totally agree with what you said--I definitely don't accept the PC "tolerance" viewpoint that all roads lead to heaven; however (you knew that was coming, didn't you?) I still believe there's more to it than "the Romans road." I certainly don't want to argue the point, but here's something that someone else wrote that does a pretty good job of expressing my understanding of the Bible on the topic of salvation:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hnohear.html
(Disclaimer - I haven't read *everything* this guy has written. There may be other things on his site that I don't agree with...)

BTW, in the verse I posted (I Pet. 3:15), I think an important (sometimes overlooked) point is that if we're living a Christ-like life, others should be coming up to us and asking, "Hey, what is it that's so good and different in your life, and how can I get it too?"

"Hi" back atcha' Sulamie. It's always nice to find other hs-ing like-minded moms!