Moving off of the previous discussion, I thought I’d have a look at Genesis Chapter 1 from a scientific perspective. There are no jokes in this, just as a warning.
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Here we have the earth, but it’s in darkness. That means no stars and that the earth is older than the sun. Also, we have water with no sun and presumably no heat.
The earth without form fits with how it was initially created (though the sun was involved) by the popular scientific understanding. Also, by quantum physics, everything is without form and void until observed (obviously God doesn’t count since He isn’t subject to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle).
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
It’s important to note that it is not specified how much time came between the first part and this part (i.e. how long the earth was without form).
Creating light most would assume means the sun. Dividing light from darkness fits with the earth rotating. We now have a day, but who knows if, by this version, the earth is rotating at its current speed?
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
This seems to be the creation of earth’s atmosphere, but it comes after the creation of water and not before as is the scientific understanding.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
This seems fine if one allows a period where all the earth was covered in water. A tectonic shift then creates continents (or one, namely Pangaea). Plants life them comes about (I assume micro-organism just weren’t worth mentioning; it sure would confuse people at the time this was written).
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Here we have problems. Now we have the creation of the stars. If they were created at this time, it would be a long while until the light from them reaches earth. Of course, God can hack that, but it just seem odd. Also, the sun isn’t truly given form until now, so what was before it that gave light? Certainly no known scientific phenomenon. And why would God have needed light before anything was placed on the earth? It’s not like He needed it to see by. Also, all of this is after plants – plants that are fine tuned to the seasons.
Anyway, I don’t find much to argue about in the rest of Genesis Chapter 1, but here it is for completeness.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Well, as a Christian I don’t put too much stock in literalist interpretations of Old Testament stories. Remember, Eve was either made of Adam’s Rib or formed from mud. Which is it, Mr. Genesis, if that is your real name?!
And lets not forget that whole Lilth scenario. 🙂
Some things:
To split hairs, this is not a scientific look at Genesis, it is a parseing of language to reconcile two viewpoints, a form of rhetorical criticism.
To Damien G.: To bring out an old standard: the Bible is the perfect word of God, written by imperfect humans. Thus, inconsistencies in fact reflect the inconsistencies in perception of the imperfect humans. None of them saw the events in Genesis, nor the fall, so their versions of the stories will differ according to their understandings. It’s not important whether Eve was made of Adam’s rib or of mud, what’s important is that God made her as a companion for Adam. The story loses no legitimacy or moral if God made Eve out of a bookshelf. God MADE a woman.
To Frank: Scientific inconsistencies in Genesis, including temporal feasibility, are to be expected. Presumably, God or some other divine agent tasked the author of genesis with writing a book explaining how God made the world. He (or she) waxed poetic, and Genesis was born. Of course, in his (or her) haste and, maybe, artistic liscence, some facts were skewed and misconstrued. Not to be cheeky, but God did not edit the Bible, so this is to be expected. In the few thousand years since it was published, scholars have had more time to deconstruct the Bible than the authors had to consider it during its inception. That there aren’t more scientific inconsistencies than there are is a testament to the quality of the work – and, some might say, a result of divine influence.
As far as there being no jokes, I gots one:
1. Which famous musician played at Steve Irwin’s funeral? STING
2. Why was Steve Irwin’s line of sun tan lotions recalled immediately after his death? THEY DIDN’T PROTECT AGAINST HARMFUL RAYS
3. What would Steve Irwin be doing if he was alive today? CLAWING AT THE INSIDE OF HIS COFFIN
I’m funny. If I make a blog, would you give me a permalink? Because Hebert roolz.
What I don’t get is how people keep assuming that ancient humanity was so much more stupid than the 21st century human race, and therefore couldn’t comprehend a more ‘scientifically accurate’ explanation of the world’s origins just because many of them believed in weird things like alchemy and astrology.
People like Al Gore exist today, which proves that humanity has not gotten significantly smarter in the last few thousand years.
George guy,
The Bible never shows God or Jesus going into complex scientific explanations. Didn’t seem to be much of a focus for Them (Him).
There’s been either thousands or millions of years of understanding, research, and consideration between then and now. There have been many discoveries and advancements made during that time, and we know things now that they simply didn’t know. To equate the contemporary body of knowledge with that of the world 15 years ago is illogical: to equate it with 2,000 or 5 billion years ago is completely asinine. They DIDN’T know the things we know. It’s an observable fact.
Unless you want to play deconstructionist, in which case we don’t know anything and neither did they, so we are both equally stupid and if you punch me in the face it doesn’t really hurt, I’m just insane.
Your point about Al Gore stands.
Right, God created light before He created the sun.
In Revelation it says there is no sun in the heavenly city, but it is lit up anyway.
“And there shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives htem light.”
All your confusion is because you are reading the bible without commentary. That’s analogous to someone trying to understand quantum mechanics without knowing basic algebra. Naturally, it looks ridiculous to you.
Read this book:
Genesis and the big bang, by gerald schroeder.
He explains what is going on. Personally, I’m not a fan of his, since current scientific theories change rapidly, so who knows if what we believe is the origin of the universe today, is what we will believe tommorow? But if you want a glimpse at the depth of what is being written, it’s a good start.
Mr. Bible requires no street map. As per some peanuts I’ve posted in other thingys today, the old testament is going to be inconsistent. Equating the big bang with the creation story is fine, but it’s just a thought experiment. Taken as intended, God made the universe and the world. Precisely how isn’t that important, or even knowable.
I happen to believe that Adam was much smarter than we are today having been created perfectly and then was subject to the fall. We have been deteriorating ever since and now knowlege is increasing but we are learning nothing…as predicted by the Christ himself.
Frank, aren’t you Catholic? Leave the biblical literalism to those crazy Protestants; we Papists gave up on biblical literalism a long time ago. 🙂
FrankJ:
As much as it pains me to point this out, you have made the fundemental theological/logical error of limiting God to working within our understanding of the “laws” of the physical universe in your reasoning above.
Don’t get me wrong, I actually agree with your position in the previous post that Genesis is not literal, however it is a flawed argument when dealing with the question of how God did or did not do things to rule out the possibility of a miracle.
If God is truly God in any meaningful sense of the term, the rules we percieve them are optional at most. Therefore, while I believe that God did not create the literally as described in Gen 1, I fully believe He COULD has created the universe literally as described in Gen 1.
Dave,
Actually, I’m a member of the Church of Christ now.
Brian,
I’m not saying God couldn’t (who am I to say what God can and can’t do), it just seem to me against His modus operandi.
Well, Creation isn’t scientific, that much is true. But I still do read the creation story literally. God works in mysterious ways, right? Miracles aren’t scientific, immaculate conception isn’t, ressurection…like I said before, the Bible isn’t a science book but when it does talk of science, it talks accurately.
I just can’t see evolution being scientific either, though…seeing as how Pasteur disproved spontaneous generation, there are no missing links and the geological column doesn’t exist, among other things. Neither views are scientific, both rely on assumptions in order for their theories to work. Creationism just has a heck of a lot more backing it up in my opinion. Aka: God, among other things.
Check out Kent Hovind’s site if you’re interested, he might be right up your ally. He’s smart and also dang hilarious.
Emily,
Spontaneous generation isn’t part of evolution, but I do dispute much of evolution as real science because it’s just making inferences… like someone studying history.
As for what has more backing, I guess that’s up to one’s own opinion.
Frank, no!
What will the “Whore of Babylon” do without your membership?!
I kid. Was this sarahk’s doing?
Damian,
Actually, I blame black people, but my parents blame the Protestant whore I married.
😛
Frank,
What about the Jooooos?
My 2 cents (maybe only worth 1.2 cents of copper though) if you believe what the new testament says about how it (the bible) was written – it was written by men guided by the Holy Spirit – that means that God did edit it. As too the creation – we all seem to believe that he created Adam and Eve at adult age but can’t seem to believe that he created the universe at an adult age? – converse among yourselves.
If today is Friday then why do I have to work tommorrow?
D
Oh, and I blame GWB
This may help answer Damian G.’s question:
Obviously, this post was written in honor of Simchat Torah, which takes place next week!
Technically the Holy Spirit didn’t come into play until the Pentacost.
Even if they were guided by the Holy Spirit, they can only describe things in their own way. Some things just wouldn’t make sense. If the saw a helicopter, they wouldn’t know what it was. They might say somthing like, a flying chariot with a great wind. Or something of the like. My point is that they could only describe what they know. The brain is a great inferencing tool. It can come up with many things from little data (which is a good thing).
Not to say that you should doubt everything just because “you don’t know if anyone knew what they were talking about”, but you just have to remember the context of the situation.
“Spontaneous generation isn’t part of evolution, but I do dispute much of evolution as real science because it’s just making inferences… like someone studying history.”
Of course it is. Evolutionists spend much time trying to determine how life first arose, and the difficulties (some would say impossibility) of life spontaneously generating is a key point of attack for creatinists.
The Spirit of God is referenced many times as working actively in the old testament, Gen 1:2, several in Judges – 13:25, 14:6, 14:19 among many others.
I also wanted to add that I agree that the discussion of evolution/creation is of little value when compared to the more important aspects of the bible (the path to salvation, Jesus crucified, etc.) Just read 1 Corinthians 1:18-24 to see how God feels about the wisdom of this world.
Due to my poor typing skills, you can read them yourselves instead of having my type them out.
D
Zac –
The “Spirit of the LORD” moved upon the face of the waters prior to creation (Genesis 1, verse 2!). He was there.
Frankj
I am no scholar on the Bible, nor have I been to church in years, so please indulge me this: my simple understanding of it all.
I used to wonder and question the literal accuracy of the Old Testament. There have been some excellent posts in this thread about the understanding of the writers of the time and the divine intervention of God. We can see how the written word pertains to our lives in every word written, if we can just read it that way. There were two events in my life that put me at peace with it and gave me room to build faith. A friend once said to me; “we cannot comprehend the glory and greatness of God. We understand the concept of infinity but cannot really comprehend it.” I then listened to a taped Bible study of the book of “Romans”. it was then that me, a Christian, actually became a Christian. The Holy Spirit is all around us at all times. He spoke to me in some of the earlier posts in this thread. Our questions get answered through Him in many ways. His will, will be done in our lives.
Pork-n-Beans
Church of Christ? No joke Frank, I’m so bummed I’ve got to shut it down now. Are you going to grow drooling fangs, and hate and despise us Catholics now like every other ex-Catholic I’ve run up against? Is the Church bad because Sarahk couldn’t get an anullment or something? Seriously I’ve got tears behind my eyes.
Kathy –
You need to meet a better class of ex-Catholics. I know several ex-catholics very well, in fact one of them was even dumb enough to marry me, who are not anti-catholic in any way. Although I do know a couple of the other kind who are very much like you describe.
The difference may be that all of the ex-catholics I know with a healthy attitude toward the Catholic church, left for other types of Christianity due to a conviction of faith while the anger filled Catholic haters I know are in general mad at Christianity in general.
Just my 2 cents worth.
God is omnipotent.
Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, which was forbidden and so they were ejected form Eden before they could eat from the Tree of Life. That would have put them on God’s level. He didn’t want them to know everything and live forever.
Adam and Eve knew “everything” after eating from the Tree of Knowledge but couldn’t live forever nor pass their knowledge on to their offspring.
We have had diminishing knowledge since then.
Evolution and dinosaurs and the appartent age of the universe aren’t mentioned in the Book of Genesis because God would has the capability to create the universe with a fossil record and every photon in place to make the world as we know it to seem different in nature than it actually is.
The universe could be 14 billion years old, 10 minutes old or any age in between.
That’s what my boss believes at least. I’m an agnostic so who knows, anything’s possible.
The rumors may be true and God may indeed act in mysterious ways.
Kathy,
Gee. I have no ire towards the Catholic Church… I have great respect for it, in fact. Plus, my parents are Catholic.
Calm down.
Kathy, I don’t hate anyone in any religion… if I did, I never would have gotten engaged to a Catholic in the first place. I was fully prepared to go into the marriage with me being a member of the church of Christ and Frank being Catholic and knowing that we were both very convicted in our beliefs and neither were likely to convert.
I’ve never tried to get an anullment from anyone. Actually, I believe that once you’re married there’s no such thing as an anullment, and divorce is only in the case of adultery. I was never Catholic, so I never would have asked the Catholic church for an anullment in the first place…
And nobody forced Frank to convert from Catholicism. We went to mass at Catholic church together on Saturdays (and I was the one being rather pushy about Frank going to whichever church he chose, because when we first got engaged, he wasn’t going to church much at all), worship on Sundays at church of Christ, and Bible study at church of Christ on Wednesdays. He listened to the sermons and we had a lot of very thoughtful discussions after each mass and each worship and throughout the week. Still do. He would ask a lot of questions, and I would go to the Bible for answers. There were some things we didn’t agree on (and still are, such as creation), but we’ve always had open, honest discussions about them, and none of those discussions has been hateful or vitriolic, and neither of us (even me) has drooling fangs. And one day, Frank made the decision to get baptized as an adult in the church of Christ.
But it’s nice to see that you automatically assumed that he converted because of some chip I had on my shoulder due to some anullment denied me by someone who has no authority over me whatsoever.
OK, agreed God could create an ‘adult’ universe, in whatever order seemed right to Him. But actually some stuff does hang together in the confines of our science – (often reasonable even though created by fallible humans.) Some of this is a matter of our persective.
Eg. Why would the atmosphere be created before water? A good deal of the atmosphere is made up of water, it might make sense to have some water around before mixing up a recipe for atmosphere.
seems pretty human…we sit around and “comment” about creation! we weren’t there, we didn’t participate and couldn’t have and rather than being awed by it we want to be critics???? c’mon!!! we can’t even create a fix for the common cold…think about what you are talking about!
I dunno how this may affect things, but some people are wont to translate the beginning of Genesis as: “In the beginning, when God was creating the heavens and the earth, and the earth was void [et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and so on and so forth], God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light, and God saw the light, that it was good.” Thus, the first act of God, according to this, was God’s creation of light; there was, however, already created material. How or when the earth was created – which was before the scope of Genesis 1 – is neither mentioned nor, evidently, does it matter. Thus, although a creation ex nihilo can be read into this interpretation, such is no way sure (and, in fact, one would have to hold that this interpretation does not explain in any way how or when the earth was first created).