As someone who has never been in the military, is it wrong for me to say I would hope that our troops would act differently than the British sailors in the same situation? I’m not going to get as indignant as Derbyshire or this guy, but I don’t think it’s too much to ask our military to be a bit mindful of their use as propaganda tools. Some may say, “Hey! You’re already sending them overseas to get shot at; seems wrong to ask any more of them,” but I disagree. Part of the job of the military is to be representative of America — that is, to represent us as the angels of death who bring famine and plague upon our enemies. So, you know, not so much smiling if you get captured. I know a frown takes more muscles, but it can make a world of difference when the cameras are on you.
Coercion Picture with Hillary
THIS guy knew what to do when he was being used as a propaganda tool.
Frank,
I can’t speak to the British sailor’s training, but I’m an Air Force pilot and our training in regards to resistance to captors is extensive, extreme, and reinforced yearly.
The Code of Conduct clearly spells out our duty in a POW situation and states, “I will accept neither parole or special favor from the enemy.”
The more legalese-inclined will point out that Britain and Iran are not technically at war and therefore the military code does not apply.
I disagree.
Hmmm. I get what you’re saying and my immediate take is to agree with you. It seems the Brits gave it up a little too easy. From my own time in the Navy, I remembered certain training we were given, should we ever be captured by an enemy, that would preclude behaving as the Brits did. However, we have several instances of Americans being forced to do similar things. I remember one POW during the Vietnam era who was taped admitting to war crimes. Only, when he was doing it he was blinking a message to his family in Morse Code. (I can’t tell ya if it’s true or not, I just heard about it and it stuck with me all these years.)
On the other hand, I don’t expect much from Europeans these days…
Anyhow, I’d be curious to know what the current DOD policy is if anyone knows.
Hah! Looks like I got my answer on the current policy while I was typing. Thanx, Phat.
I remember the Code of Conduct, and recall that it pretty clearly stated that part of our mission was to never submit to the enemy, never spout their BS.
The events in Somalia in 1993 brought home the reality of just how difficult it is to follow the Code to the letter. Michael Durant appeared on TV while in captivity and said things prepared by the Somali overlords who held him. But nobody at home doubted his patriotism, and nobody blamed him for saying a bunch of words. Torture will break a man, and we were right not to persecute Mr. Durant for the empty words he said at gunpoint.
But, the British sailors appear to have endured much less than he did, and all signs point to capitulation by their commander. It don’t look good.
What do you expect? They are BRITISH! An effite nation of wimps and light weights that still think having a king and queen is a good idea. Our guys would fight back and never get taken hostage by a bunch of Iranian Homos!
Austin? The belly of the beast?
Oh my Lord.
Well, our carry laws are similario. AND, like Florida, we have alligators, and no state income tax.
Welcome. Bring us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses.
And we’ll trade you!
In survival school they showed us the video of the guy blinking morse code (he blinked ‘torture’), yet there was no national outrage. I think there would be today.
We have a Senator (McCain) who cannot raise his arm above shoulder level because of the physical torture and privation he suffered. He is one of the lucky ones. My personal hero, Lance Sijan (google him) died in captivity after multiple escape attempts.
It took the experiences of the Vietnam Vets to drive us to the Code of Conduct we have today and I can only guess that this is the Brit’s first modern experience with psychological torture/extortion. Surely there’s something in there storied mil history to prove otherwise?
ussj,
In defense of the British military, they are not the effete snobs that the general populace of the UK is. They train and fight just as hard as any American serviceman, and, just like the American military, are a cut above. And keep in mind they come from a nation much further along the road to sharia law and political correctness than we are. They are good people, and don’t deserve the same scorn that their government does. Just like us.
I dont’t know much about the AF or Navy, but would hope Marines and soldiers who put up a hell of alot more resistance than the Brits did. I mean they were Royal Marines, supposedly the elite of their Military, sort of like ours. And they just happened to give up without a fight? What happened to ‘Death before Dishonor’ and other gung ho stuff? This is the world we’re coming to, and I’m entering the military soon….wow.
I think we all hesitate to pass judgment on those in tough situations (as we should) since we have to ask ourselves, “Would I have done any better?” But that moment of self-examination shouldn’t stop us from passing level-headed judgment about whether these P.O.W.s have lived up to the code of conduct. Clearly these British sailors behaved shamefully. In less than two weeks with nothing more than intimidation, Iran extracted more propaganda from them than the North Vietnam got from America’s P.O.W.s in ten years of torture. These sailors should be ashamed of how quickly they volunteered as tools of a terrorist state.
The code of conduct exists more for the benefit of the captive than for the honor of the nation. If I divulge information to the enemy that can be used against my fellow prisoners, then of course I have to assume that my fellow P.O.W.s are just as disloyal to me as I am to them. Once all the P.O.W.s become distrustful of each other, they’re easily exploited. That’s why (for their own sake) P.O.W.s must live up to a code of conduct, and resist giving the enemy any information that can be used against any other P.O.W. That’s also why, if they do divulge harmful information under torture, they have to immediately confess to their buddies what they’ve told, so that they won’t be surprised during their own interrogations.
I haven’t been a P.O.W., so I say this with that icky uncertainty about whether I’d do any better. But I know what I’m saying is true, because I went through Army Ranger School with a man who’d been North Vietnam’s guest for seven years, and he explained to me why such shameful misconduct as these Brits displayed is so destructive to the P.O.W.s themselves. Clearly, the British navy needs to address a serious problem.
Great points, Bob. While I still want to defend the Brits who were held, I think this incident illustrates the extreme danger we are in, when political correctness threatens the fabric of the military. I can’t help thinking these sailors and marines were commanded to comply.
All I know for certain is this will get much worse before long.
I’m not going to stand up for the actions of the Brits, neither am I willing to condemn them. I personally, as a member of the US Army would have behaved differently. I don’t know what code the Brits swear to uphold, but it must be in stark contrast to the US military’s Code of Conduct.
I’m glad they are home with their families. At the same time, I would not be proud of the actions of my son or daughter if they acted the way these sailors and royal marines did.
Listening to the audio of the detained British captain was painful to accept. He referred to the ordeal of being blindfolded and bound, lined up against a wall and listening to rounds being chambered into rifles as “nerve wracking”. Nerve wracking? My nerves are wracked every day. I don’t give up the fight over it. I don’t think something “nerve wracking” would make me fall apart and lose all military bearing.
The threat of being captured is omnipresent as a soldier in the middle east. Giving up and making treasonous comments in the first two days of capture is unacceptable. If this is the mettle of the troops we’re (“we” being the west) sending to fight radical muslims, then I’m a bit scared for my future.
To be fair, I’ve never been taken hostage, although this weekend’s Easter dinner with my in-laws may qualify. TORTURE Read my blinks, people!
…And what’s with the gift bags? Were they at the academy awards?
Among the many troubling questions surrounding the British sailor kidnappings, one that stands out in my mind is this: What was that fat tub of Spam even doing on this mission? I’m talking about the female sailor.
You telling me she passed a physical? Sure she can float, but can she even swim? They might have been able to outrun the Iranians if she wasn’t aboard.
Churchill once said “Don’t speak to me about British Navy tradition. It’s all rum, sodomy and the lash.” I don’t know about the sodomy, but maybe it’s time to bring back the other two to toughen these limeys up.
Remember…there were IRANIANS!!! They weren’t confronted by the best of the Russian or Chinese military! These were the guys that Sadam fought to a draw for 6 years and we kicked his ass in 3 weeks! C’mon! I agree with bunkerboy! Bring back the lash…as for the sodomy part…the Iranians can teach that!
You folks are being hard on fifteen sailors that seemed to have done the right thing: while their government was on track for yet another strong statement, they made a deal to get out of jail without the 444 day Jimmy Carter waiting period.
Had the U.K. been looking out for their folks, the Iranian capturers would have been interdicted and captured themselves. Without that, why not go wobbly when your government has.
As for blinking torture, I don’t know Morse code, but I would hope to have the courage to make a parody of subservience, shucking off my uniform and wrapping myself in a bed sheet, thanking my liberators… chanting “Death to America, Death to the Jews, Long Live Mel Gibson, Bush is Hitler…”
I spent six years in the USAF. I got the lecture about the code of conduct, but the lesson was modified a bit with the idea that when tortured, everyone eventually talks.
So, the idea is to cooperate as little as possible and reveal as little as possible.
I’m not sure what happened to the Brits, but they do seem to have become very cooperative very quickly.
As my screenname indicates, I can speak with Complete Moral Authority ™ on this issue.
On the day of the takeover, the Marines were outnumbered at least 1000 to 1. We held the consulate and the communications vault for over 12 hours, helping to destroy equipment and classified material. We were under STRICT orders not to fire our weapons or pop gas grenades (too late for that last one..hee, hee, hee). We were eventually told that we were on or own and to make a break for it. The monkeys even put one of the diplomats in front of the comm vault peep eye with a pistol to their head and threatened to kill them unless the door was opened. It wasn’t and they didn’t. Once all the material was destroyed the doors were opened and they all got the crap beat out of them.
When we were first taken, the Iranians took us into a room individually and asked us to sign a statement denouncing the US policy in Iran, Israel, the Shah, etc. The Marines signed with names such as Michael Mouse, Chesty Puller, Dan Daly (google the last two…Marine Corps legends), Harry Butz, etc.
During the ordeal they would try to tape us for propoganda purposes. Personnaly, I would keep looking down to the ground or hide behind others so that my face wouldn’t show (in fact, after a couple of months of not seeing me in any of the videos my records I was classified as MIA). Another Marine and I shared the same cell and when they came in with cameras we’d strip down. I heard a rumor that one of the other Marines smeared ketchup on his face and started howling.
They day before they released us, we were taken to a room with a camera and Mary the Terrorist who was going to interview us. We were threatened that if we didn’t say the right things we wouldn’t be released. Some Marines gave only name rank and SSN, others sang (Marine Corps Hymn or God Bless America), others just said nothing.
On the day they let us go, I was being herded towards the airplane by a couple of those monkeys. I pulled my arm out of their grasp and let them know that “We’re number one”…but used the wrong finger.
For our troubles we were isolated, thumped, went through two mock executions, starved, threatened, and had to put up with useful idiots from Amnesty International showing up just to let the world know how humane we were being treated.
We resisted at each opportunity, except for Army Sgt Joe Subic who collaborated from day 1 and was later snubbed by the rest of us (and was the only one not to receive a citation). We refused to cooperate, stole keys, plugged toilets, pissed in their rations, blew circuit breakers, laughed in their face when they threatened us and cursed them when they beat us. Steve Kirtley even told one of them to pull his finger! The monkey did and Steve was beaten for the inevitable result.
We did this because we were first and foremost, MARINES! Our honor and loyalty to the United States gave us the courage. We would rather die (and that was a definate possibility) than to shame ourselves, our Corps, or our Country. We had to live up to our history and got to measure ourselves and our actions against those of greater men.
Yes, we broke now and then. But would immediately pick ourselves back up and go back to fighting. Which, by the way, confused the hell out of the monkeys!
Pity the poor Brits. All they had was the history of the E.U. and the U.N. as examples.
Semper Fi
Thank you, FormerHostage. Thank you for the history lesson. I had forgotten.
FormerHostage,
I was hoping you’d comment. Is it okay for me to post your comment on the front page?
I was stunned at how fast these guys broke. They were stripped and dressed in pajamas and kept in stone cells, isolated for TWO WEEKS!! What a bunch of sissies. They deserve to be court-marshaled. FormerHostage and others describe the right way to handle this kind of situation.
I learned from dealing with the British in Iraq that they are EXTREMELY gun-shy. Part of their problem is their country signed up to be accountable in some kind of international court. I spoke to several Brits who had been through these proceedings. I don’t know their rules but my impression is that you better have new holes in you before you pull a trigger if you don’t want to be put on trial.
Of course, they basically view Americans as a bunch of trigger-happy cowboys. If I recall correctly, President Bush took some heat early in his administration (pre-9/11?) for refusing to put the US military in the same boat. I don’t think Americans would have gone down without a fight to start with.
Bunkerboy: I like the Churchill quote. He would be ashamed of the sorry state of today’s British military.
Frank, sure.
First off to Former Hostage, thank u for being a US Marine and for your admirable behavior during the iranian thuggery. Secondly, the british soldiers broke too quickly, but we do not know what they r taught in these situations, they may have given the Hawaiian good luck sign we don’t know, I personally would be ashamed to have given in w/out black eyes, broken nose and limbs in casts. Thirdly, the rules of engagement are what screwed these limeys. Their destroyer had to get permission to fire on the iranian monkeys!! WTF?
Our own soldiers live with this every day as well.
PC bullshit. I know Fmr. Host. would agree, tht if the USMC hands weren’t tied by some bureaucratic bullshit, our job in iraq would have been done in months, not years.
May be worth noting in the Hillary handshake picture that she is shaking hands palm down which some think is meant to convey dominance over the other person. Pretty stupid thing to do in that situation all things considered. But hey, its Hillary.
“Pull my finger”. It’s not just for Uncles anymore!!
Thanks Former Hostage. You’re a credit to the Nation.
Unfortunately the British Brass screwed up. The UK Sailors and Marines never had any training on prisoner responsibility, resisting interrogation, etc. According to the brass only the AF and ground forces get this, “we never expected them to be captured”. (Imagining it with a British accent is even more amusing).
One the comments about the British wimpiness. I don’t think it is the British Military or the (majority of) the British People, but it is the British Politicians and especially the BBC.
(I’m not sure if the British Lion will wake up, but it is starting to stir).
ALSO: Also the UK Pols are slashing the Military Budget. It turns out the Boarding party’s only receive 2 days of training, b/c that is all the MoD (Ministry of Defense) can afford.
EU Referendum has a lot on this as well:
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/
I’m reluctant to criticize the British Marines, as I feel that any decision to surrender was made at much higher level.
Having never been a prisoner of war or hostage, it’s impossible to
predict how anyone would respond, but I do remember what I was told
when in the army. Our senior NCOs told us what we should do under the
code of conduct, what protections the Geneva Convention provided, and
then told us we would forget all of it and tell our captors anything
and everything once the electric wires were attached to our testicles.
The primary thing that can protect a captured soldier is when his status is known by groups like the International Red Cross and
those “useful idiots” Amnesty International. If any of what “Formerhostage” says is true, he should know that they only got
away with these barely believable “juvenile pranks” because his condition was being monitored by these humanitarian groups.
“Formerhostage” also needs to be reminded of the “USS Pueblo” since
he is so interested in history and has such low regard for our European allies.
Do you think Cmdr. Lloyd Bucher ever read this?
United States Military Code of Conduct Article II
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will
never surrender the members of my command while they still have the
means to resist.
I’m certain that Bucher did know that he had to defend his ship, follow the code and would have done so. He spent the rest of his life angry that he could not get any air support even though they were only 5 minutes flying time away. But just like those British Marines, somebody
in the command ordered him to surrender.