Time to talk about Noah and the Ark.
Anyway, after the Cain and Abel story, there’s a whole lot of begattery going on and people living even longer than Yoda. Noticeably absent for Chapter 5 is Cain and how long he lived; apparently he doesn’t pop up again until the computer game Command & Conquer. The longest living, of course, is Methuselah (did his friends call him “Meth”?) at 969 years. SarahK says if you follow the chapters and do the math, he dies the year of the flood. I’ll take her word for it because I didn’t expect there to be word problems in the Bible and didn’t have my calculator on me.
But we’re getting ahead of ourselves.
So God suddenly declares man’s “days shall be one hundred and twenty years,” and giants are walking the earth and I’ve just given up on expecting the author, Moses, to give me anymore details of all this wackiness.
Now God gets angry (He’s like angry throughout the Old Testament) at man’s wickedness and declares, “I’m gonna kill the bastards!” (not an actual Bible quote). Then he realized that Noah is ‘aight so he spares him, his wife, his sons – Ham, Shem, and Japheth (where do they get these names?) – and their families.
Now comes the most detail yet in the Bible as God explains step by step how to build an ark. Yeah, people popping out of nowhere and giants wandering around doesn’t need any explanation, but we learn how the ark was built down to about where each nail goes.
At least now we know where Jesus got his interest in carpentry from.
Noah is commanded to take onto the ark all the animals there are – seven each of the clean animals and two each of the unclean (I’m not sure exactly about the clean/unclean distinction, but I know it was discussed in the movie Pulp Fiction). Now, I admit I don’t know how big a cubit is, but you aren’t going to fit every specie of animal on that boat – I don’t even care if it has four decks.
Supposedly, though, Noah shoves them all in there (luckily there being no Humane Society to stop him) and somehow gets the thing afloat when it rains for forty days and forty nights (almost as bad as Seattle). So the water goes up fifteen cubits (I really should look up how long a cubit is) and covers the mountains and kills everything on the land. Think of all those drowning puppies.
Of course, I’m going, “Bull.” There is not enough water on earth to cover all the land and mountains, even if you melt all the ice. Are we supposed to believe that God just made water out of nowhere? And where did it all go when it receded?
Look at this verse (Gen 8:1):
Then God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the animals that were with him in the ark. And God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters subsided.
First off, God just forgot about them? What in the world was He up to? It makes me wonder if God has other universes to play with and we’re just a side interest.
And the water was blown away by wind? Evidently, Noah, Moses, and/or God do not understand the water cycle (and I’m not thinking it’s God).
Whatever. Let’s just take it at face value. Now, instead of everyone descending from Adam and Eve, Noah the new origin as only he and his kin weren’t voted off the island. And God then displays the symbol of gay pride as his covenant that He’ll never fly off the handle and kill everyone again. So every time you see a rainbow, remember that God has given up His mass-murdering ways… at least by flood.
Now here is where things get weird.
No, really, this is where I’m completely lost. Noah makes wine and then gets completely wasted, passing out drunk and naked – nothing unusual yet. Now lookee here (Gen 9:22-23 for those playing along at home):
And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness.
Now Noah gets all mad at Ham after this, when it seemed like Ham was the one wronged by seeing his father naked when he probably didn’t even mean to. Now SarahK told me that “saw the nakedness of his father” is a euphemism for… uh… nastier things, but the next part about Shem and Japheth being careful not to look at their naked six-hundred something year-old father (and who wouldn’t be careful once warned by your scarred for life brother) seems to me to imply that all Ham did was see Noah naked (probably then exclaiming, “Gah!” and shielding his eyes ala Hank Hill).
Whatever really happened, the crazy thing is Noah doesn’t curse Ham (probably figuring having the name “Ham” being a big enough curse) and instead curses Ham’s son Canaan to be a servant of the others and such. What the hell did he do?
Some used the curse as evidence why slavery of Africans was okay, but the whole part seems more like evidence that God was a little hasty in picking Noah as the righteous one. I really think Ham, Shem, and Japheth should have gotten together and given their father an intervention.
In toto, I take the lesson of the flood is that everyone deserves a mulligan… even the Lord.
I swore I’d never do it, but here it goes…
First!
Very funny Frank, thank you.
I was almost first (hangs head in shame)….
Since he’s God, wouldn’t he get as many mulligans as he wants? I wouldn’t be opposed to that…
bin Laden? “Oops. My bad.”
John Kerry, Al Franken? “Mully, mully.”
Michael Moore? “Yo, that’s all Satan right there.”
” Is there enough water to flood the entire earth? Absolutely! If the earth were perfectly spherical the oceans would cover all the land by more than a mile in depth. The biblical account is that it rained for 40 days and nights in which the floodgates of the heavens were opened up as well as the fountains from the earth (Gen. 7:11;8:2). There is a theory known as the canopy theory that states it had never rained on the earth up to the time of Noah and that a mist watered the plants (Gen. 2:6-6). The theory goes on to state that there may have been a heavy cloud or water vapor layer over the entire earth and that it was this canopy of water that became torrential rains during the flood period. ”
“Could the ark really contain all the animals of the world? Again the answer is “Yes.” But let’s look at the last question in more detail. The ark took about 120 years to build. Noah was 480 years old when he began the work and he had the help of his wife, three sons, and his son’s wives. He probably hired local people to help in the construction.
The dimensions of the ark have a ratio of six to one. The Ark was six times longer than it was wide. This is the best ratio for modern ship building. Model stability tests have shown that the design is stable for waves up to 200 feet high and that the ark could have rotated 90 degrees and still righted itself.
The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 Ëœ 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let’s consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. ”
Noah’s ark
I Personally have lain out the proper dimensions of the ark in a field. There is no way even a fraction of the animals would fit, even if pureed in a blender! Of course as you add food storage requirements for the one year after-voyage (as it apparently took that long for the water to subside) you end up with a very implausible tale. I think it’s merely a story designed to teach, not something one must believe to be perfectly true.
I am curious if the catfood calculations include the fact that Noah made this thing out of wood? And not a particularily strong one, at that. It probably would collapse under it’s own weight if built.
My favorite “this has to be real for me to sleep at night” kind of believer is the one who also thinks that all the dinosaurs were on the ark as well. They live in Kentucky and are building a “science” museum. I swear I’m not joking. Look up “Answers in Genesis” on google!
Blenster
You assume that all the species today were there for the Ark. I propose that there were only a few dozen species then, with the rest coming around after the flood, because there was no evolution before then. So basically it was just like common farm animals, dogs and cats, and a few funny species like elephants and giraffes. The rest came later. Oh, and dragons and unicorns were accidentally left off, which is why they aren’t around anymore.
You guys are forgetting Noah lived in a time when “the world” was, roughly, Mesopotamia. There weren’t that many animals around in the area, and it is not inconceivable the entire “world” as they knew it could have been flooded.
The interesting thing about Genesis is how surprisingly accurately it jibes with modern cosmology on a general level – the universe has a beginning, and began with light (energy).
Isn’t saying “I won’t destroy the earth again” then muttering “by water” under your breath kind of like when you were ten, and your mom asked you if you’d done your homework, and you said “Yes” and after she left said “last week’s homework”?
Gullyborg,
Any chance of evolution creating all the current species of animals from “a few dozen in less than 6000 years?
You guys are all wrong. What makes you think the ark was the same size inside as outside, hmmmmmm? You don’t think the “God of the entire Universe” knows quantum physics?
Well, I did hear an interesting theory, to wit: The land mass of the Earth covered pretty much the entire Earth, and was fairly flatish. The oceans were underneath the land mass. A crack in the Earth’s crust occurred and the crack travelled competely around the Earth in a matter of seconds, like a crack in a piece of glass…or an eggshell in this case. (proposed physical evidence being the line at the bottom of the marianas trench and all the way around the earth, North-ish to South-ish or vice-versa) This allowed the water to escape from under the land mass, pushed out by the weight of the land mass and flying up very high in the sky, falling back like a big honkin rainstorm. Firguring roughly it would take 40 days for all this water to be pushed out by the sinking land masses seems reasonable.
Then it takes a wee bit of time for the weight of the water to gather at particular locations (the oceans), and the weight of that pushing a certain amount of land back up above sea level (the continents), then the bird goes out and finds an Olive branch and wrestles for days with himself/herself about whether to fly back to that stinky ark.
Entirely possible. Bringing Science and Religion together at no charge.
Any chance you could troll DU and get some of the more traditional whack-jobs back?
Furthermore, Creation being a 7 day event…
It is now known that the dimension of Time very near a black hole is greatly distorted because of the immense power and unknown factors relating to the black hole. Given this information, it is entirely possible that Time was immensly distorted at the moment of the Big Bang. What would be 7 billion years to us as we observe time passing today, could easily have been 7 days close to the big bang event.
Or we could merely be the little bacteria living briefly on the specks and shards of an exploded firecracker, set off by accident by an immense Al Gore in his boyhood days in an inflamatory universe of unimaginable proportion. This is probably where the concept of good and evil comes from.
Living here in Utah, smack dab in the middle of the Great Basin. I can’t help not believing that there is some truth in the Noah’s Ark story. Even at the top of the surrounding mountains, you can find fossils and mineral deposits, which form under water. Now all those animals? Yeah, a little hard to swallow. But have you seen the animals from Australia? God sure has been experimenting there, why couldn’t he experiment everywhere else for the past 6000 years.
I’m still upset about Noah leaving behind the Unicorns, Dragons, and other magical beasts.
Look, Noah was a little…whacky. He had spent years determined to get in the Guiness book of world records by making the biggest ball of string. But, there just wasn’t that much string around and so he had another idea to build the world’s biggest boat. When people pointed out that there was no need for a boat that big he just said “Shut Up!”
Then, one day, due to a little miscalculation 4.5 billion years earlier, the polar icecaps melted and everything flooded. Noah happened to have this giant boat (he was really disappointed when he finished it and then found out there was no Guiness Book of world records yet) so he and his family got in.
Everyone else wanted in, but since they had teased him about building the boat, he said no.
After the whole thing was over, not EVERYONE was drowned, and they were all pretty impressed that Noah had just happened to have this boat. ALways one to grandstand, he started telling people Hallowed had told him to build it. And Hallowed was all like “I did not, I would not kill everybody in the single most painful way a person can can be killed just because I was mad. Quit telling people that, you are going to mess up their heads for centuries to come!”
He then gave Noah a stern talking to about saying things like that and still points out to him everyday what a mess he caused.
I hope these fun (only slightly heretical) posts dont turn into religion-bashing forums … :/
Cuz I bet God is chuckling a little bit… “Frank J? Is he related to Glenn Reynolds?”
if people are living till 900 doesn’t that give a lot of time to have babies and make more people? How many generations is 500 years?
Did it rain before the flood? If there was an outer atmosphere that was like a big hyperbaric chamber with infused moisture, and it imploded??
Frank:
A cubit is approximately the length from one’s elbow to the tip of the middle finger. I always prefer to demonstrate when asked the question.
I admit I am biased in that I WANT to believe. Also, After the introduction of sin -(death)- the first humans still lived pretty long because they started out genetically perfect…right?
You want to plunge into scientific argument FOR God and Creation over your head ??? I may post this link every day is the bashing of God begins…
Spend a half hour here
http://www.reasons.org/index.shtml
Who says God doesn’t use nature to do his work. God IS Nature no?
Frank, go to AnswersInGenesis.org
Some of your questions are answered there.
Also read these three books by Lee Strobel: The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, and The Case for Creation. All three are very eye-opening and answer tons of questions.
Hooray for the C&C reference!
/Carry on
I remember an interesting factoid from my Senior High School AP English class which, in our study of ancient “literature” (the Bible was included by calling it “lit” and not “religious” so as to confound the liberals, we’re smart like that in Oklahoma) we learned that almost every ancient culture had a “great flood” story in their history/mythology. Couple that with a previously mentioned theory that when the Bible says 2 of “every animal” was preserved in the ark meaning “every animal you can find and know of” then things are not all that implausible.
To quote Obi Wan Kenobi: “…[Y]ou are going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.”
so Ham date raped his drunken father?
I went to the two websites mentioned by Kitty kitty and gibsongrl
The first four articles I found (2 from each site) were supporting this absolute lunacy that the earth is only a few thousand years old and that Dinosaurs and man existed at the same time. That was enough for me.
Come on folks! Look, God gave everyone an amazing brain, curiosity and free will. He then also gave the people of the day something they could handle…some stork stories about how everything started because he knew they were not ready to handle any more than that. He probably figured that we would learn more about the reality of how things happened when our own knowledge grew to that point. We would know more when we could handle more.
Nothing science is revealing today is evidence that God did not create everything. It is revealing more lucid information about HOW he created it. And like growing children we have to be mature enough to let the fables go and accept what our knowledge is discovering for us.
Science has shown how planets form, that just gives us a clearer insight to all the planning god had to do. Science has shown how life evolves. This just gives us more insight into the time and care it took for Him to start with single celled organisms and cultivate them into thinking beings.
I think he would be disappointed in the number of people who put their energy into trying to ‘prove’ that the original stork stories are true instead of developing the way he thought we would and beginning to adapt what he said a long time ago to co-exist with what science is showing us.
How can anyone be mad at Ham? It comes from the magical animal called ‘pig’, one of the tastiest creations ever.
“And the water was blown away by wind? Evidently, Noah, Moses, and/or God do not understand the water cycle (and I’m not thinking it’s God).”
Let me put it this way: it was the largest hand-dryer machine ever.
This is great, FrankJ, keep bringing the enlightening hilarity!
Chris, I challenge you to read Case for Creation by Lee Strobel, then see if you still feel the way you do. I think you may have a change of mind.
I go with the Simpson episode where the judge ordered a restraining order on religion keeping it at least 500 yards away from science. I find trying to mix the two… offsetting.
There is nothing in science that can prove or disprove anything that would cause me to lost my faith, and I don’t approach any scientific problem wondering how it fits with the Bible.
Cubit = 18 Inches
Who says the animals were adults? And remember, given a few thousand years, you can breed just about every known type of dog from the timber wolf.
Wouldn’t inbreeding cause the decendants of the Noah family to live a shorter life, since human genetic diversity was now limited?
Also, it’s only thanks to the flood that we got to eat meat. Before that it was strictly plants (Gen 9:3). So that’s a bit of an upside.
Also, Gen 9:2 implies that animals were not afraid of humans before the flood, (since people didn’t eat them?), making it easier to catch and manage them on the ark.
Faith and Science: They’re like a pair of shoes. You need both to get somewhere (to reach true understanding). (From a B5 show. I don’t care that the creators/writers say they’re atheists/agnostics. There’s just too much underlying “God-ness” in that show coming through…despite themselves.)
my favorite part of this story is that apparently they had never actually seen rain before. (according to gen 2:4-6, God had not sent rain on the earth) how scary must that have been.
There are no “giants” in the Bible. That’s a poor translation. The real translation is Nephilin or something like that. The Bible doesn’t really tell you what they are, though.
Not scary at all to see no rain BEFORE the flood. That’s what they were used to. A “mist” would rise from the ground each night to water everything (Gen 2:6.)
This actually gets back to God’s reason for telling Noah that the Earth would not be destroyed BY FLOOD again. (God will purge the Earth by FIRE, 2 Peter 3:7.)
Here’s what would be scary for Noah post flood: Imagine you’ve never seen rain or flooding before this whole global flood. The only rain and flooding you know of has been catastrophic. The ecological system has changed radically, so that there will now be regular storms and local flooding. What are you gonna think the next time it rains? “Cheezit everybody! Back into the ARK!!!” You’ll never do what God told you to do, which was to “Fill up the whole Earth.” God’s just giving them comfort by letting them know they needn’t worry about subsequent weather patterns destroying the earth again, that’s all. The rainbow (the conditions for which didn’t exist before the flood) was a reminder for them.
‘Course, later on many people wouldn’t believe God’s promise, which was one of the reasons that the Tower of Babel was made to be waterproof.
There is a new book out about the Nephilim being hyped by World Net Daily. I think it is a bit kooky, though.
Genesis is mainly “ripped off” much older texts. Kinda like a kids version of the history of mankind. If you want the grown up version you better get a spade and start digging. Plenty of ‘lost books’ mentioned in the Bible.
I think some of you (FrankJ included) should be careful consider:
Jude 10-11
10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts , in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
NKJV
As for the flood being an actual event. Jesus believed so.
Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
NKJV
Now you may not agree with the flood account in Gen., but realize Jesus did, was He lying, or maybe He was crazy. Or, maybe the wisdom of man just can’t comprehend the wisdom of God and we should accept what is written.
Jesus said lots of made up stuff. They were allegories.
The problem is however, let’s say you belive what I believe, that the flood did take place but much earlier and differed in part to the flood recorded in Genesis, the writer (who was not Moses, unless someone can prove it to me) tried his best, got the basic gist down and that was good enough. Now along comes Jesus – and everyone believes the Torah is true and the notion that it was taken from bigger, longer creation stories would get you killed – would Jesus go around telling be the truth before he got his message out?
I think the Bible, which lest you forget was put together by a bunch of men on behalf of a Roman Emperor – i.e God never told us what is a Bible -, is enough to get you started and enough for most people, but Jesus did say, seek and yee shall find.
Once again, Frank J; I don’t know how you manage to post so much at such high quality.
The clean and unclean animals were saved. What really chaps my hide was the blatant disregard for the undirty animals. None were saved thus they all died. That is why nobody ever talks of them. Poor undirty animals. Or what about the dirty animals….
Didn’t Larry, Curly, Moe and Schemp help too ?
Jesus did speak in parables on occasion, but the Gospel accounts are very straightforward about when He was or was not. Most of the time He was not, particularly when He was quoting from the Hebrew scriptures. Also, He didn’t use proper names in His parables.
Careful with the “Jesus-spoke-in-parables-so-I-don’t-hafta-believe-what-He-said” argument. You may not like what Jesus said, but denying that He said it won’t let you off the hook.
“Imagine there’s no heaven…
It’s easy, if you try…
No hell below us…
Above us, only sky…”
“Imagine” all you want to.
It doesn’t change a thing.
M181: heck yeah, shorter life span — before that, you were living, what, 969 years, and after that, three score and ten.
Poosh: lots of people (eh, even including extremely overeducated Episcopal priests, so it’s not just a backwoods pente-baptist thing) say the Nephilim were supposed to be bad angels coming and mating with humans. Which made for another good reason for the flood. (And, hey, everybody — if we posit the existence of an omnipotent supreme power, everything could have happened in any way at all, even to the world being created 5 minutes ago and all our memories of reading this post being programmed in. So, by “it couldn’t happen,” what you’re really saying is, “it couldn’t happen naturally” — which, indeed, is rather the point!)
Correction: Nephilim = the products of bad angels mating with humans.
This is a parable for our time. We conservatives are working and working on saving Western Civilization and the liberals laugh and mock and when the Islamo-crazies blow the world up we few conservatives left who knew it was coming are going to be right–but really sad– because Hollywood will be gone and who is going to make cool movies?
Ok so we aren’t building an ark, or bomb shelters in this case—at least I’m not that you know of, heh heh—but don’t you sometimes feel like Noah? The disaster is coming but people won’t wake up. Idiot LLL’s would hand over everything to mullahs who would chop off the LLL’s hands or something, just to spite West. Civ./the U.S. and they are laughing at us –or will until the chopping action. Meanwhile we can see the danger but aren’t believed.
My point is I like listening to the different theories of how the flood came or the how many animals fit in the ark, but it completely misses the point of the story. I wonder, will Europe be screaming for help one day at the threat they can finally see, and will we be finally what they always wanted, an islationist America, without any military might, only able to listen to their screams?
Ok, I gotta stop now. Writing at the end of the day is always a mistake. I start off light and end up dark and scary. Good night.
Did you get a Big bible frank?
For archaeological evidence for the Old Testament, the best book I’ve ever read is “Sodom and Gomorrah” by Charles Pellegrino. He writes history like a novel, it’s very engrossing. And features (actual) lakes of fire and smoten lawyers!
Link:Sodom and Gomorrah
Trying to link again:
Sodom and Gomorrah
OK, I still suck. It’s long past time Frank should have included some linking-tools here in the comments sections. So all those who are interested, you’ll just have to type in the title/author at Amazon yourselves.
I just don’t care about the validity of this stuff. How many animals you can cram in how many cubits means nothing to me, but the morality Jesus taught is quite a different thing.
That’s not to say there wasn’t any Noah or giants or what not – it’s just piddling compared to God walking among man.
True. But, regardless of whether or not there actually were giants, noah, jonah’s whale, etc.: if they couldn’t have existed, then God has no power (doesn’t exist?), and Jesus was just a nice guy with his own flawed version of morality.
Heh…gotta love the Command & Conquer reference.
Heh…gotta love the Command & Conquer reference.
One thing that no one really commented on was the naked thing. It’s simple frank: Ham very easily could have covered noah’s nakedness himself rather than go and “mock” him to his other sons. When you see someone doing something potentially embaressing don’t tell everyone instead help them. Otherwise who knows you might get your son cursed. I could go on and on about the meshing of science and religion with regards to the ark but would it really make a difference. You’re either going to believe or not and only God can change your mind. I can’t convince you I can only help clarify for those who are truely curious. No one ever changes someones mind by debating with them only the minds of those listening are subject to growth.
One thing that no one really commented on was the naked thing. It’s simple frank: Ham very easily could have covered noah’s nakedness himself rather than go and “mock” him to his other sons. When you see someone doing something potentially embaressing don’t tell everyone instead help them. Otherwise who knows you might get your son cursed. I could go on and on about the meshing of science and religion with regards to the ark but would it really make a difference. You’re either going to believe or not and only God can change your mind. I can’t convince you I can only help clarify for those who are truely curious. No one ever changes someones mind by debating with them only the minds of those listening are subject to growth.
Everytime I go to a natural history museum, and look at the fossils, which were all buried by rock layers laid down by water, I think, hey, you guys are left over from Noah’s Flood, and are screaming a giant warning to mankind that God puts up with sin only so long … then it gets judged. They are a loud witness. I wonder if anyone is listening?
God judges sin, so go through the Open Door, Jesus Christ, before it starts raining. Fire and brimstone this time. Get on the ARK, people!
Well, seeing as I have an actual degree in Geology here…Creationism is crap. The “fossil layers” MountainMama is talking about are very common, but it’s not all from “Noah’s Flood”. There’s LOTS of these events, and mass extinctions happen about once every 26 million years. Also, the theory about “oh, there’s fossil seashells on mountain tops!” to somehow prove the 6K Yr-Flood thing completely fails to take into account fossilization rates, and geologic uplift. The most ridiculous Creation-proving theory I heard was that the speed of light was actually slowing down. If this were to actually happen, our universe wouldn’t even exist. Study some physics, people!
On the other hand, Creationism is actually quite valid in quantum physics, as the idea of the universe being created 10,000 years ago is not only possible, but probably equal to the same idea that the entire universe was created about the same time I posted this, and all the other info and “dinosaurs” was just backfill ;).
As for the debate about this, I propose we skip it, start drinking, and blame the whole debacle on the joooos.
Stop saying GIANTS! The Bible NEVER said that!
Stop buying King James versions. Stop it! Pick up a New International Version.
Giants! Giants! Giants!
They Might Be Giants!
Kitty Kitty, I might read that book…if it follows proper scientific method. In that I mean that it was written by a totally impartial person observing the evidence totally objectively and reporting on what the evidence presented.
However, if he had a stake in the outcome of his work, a preconceived notion of what he wanted the research to show and was trying to find evidence to support what he already believed, then it has zero validity, as would any other work written on a preconceived premise.
Just a question for those who care: how do we know how long a cubit was?
Anyone here care to explain marine fossils at the peaks of the Rocky Mountains with an argument other than the flood? Those gullible enough to believe that features as delicate as fossils can survive geological vaulting need not respond.
I have a chunk of brimstone from Gomorrah on my bookshelf 1 ft. out of my reach. The stuff in Genesis is true.
The Turkish government credits the late Ron Wyatt for proving the location of Noah’s Ark.
Cool pics.
“Anyone here care to explain marine fossils at the peaks of the Rocky Mountains with an argument other than the flood? Those gullible enough to believe that features as delicate as fossils can survive geological vaulting need not respond.”
I put them there, just to mess with your mind man!
Muhahahaha
Being named Ham is a weighty curse. Noah’s son Ham lived in constant fear of Michael Moore pouncing on him and devouring him whole!!!
So did Ham’s sister, N’eggs.
JR – Here ya go –
Sodom and Gomorrah
Done with this string:
TEXT FOR LINK GOES HERE
Wow – that worked too well. The string is, a href=”URL GOES HERE”>TEXT FOR LINK GOES HERE at the end.
OK, someone else want to help JR out?
PS – God’s blessings on all of you, as you seek the truth. I’m sure there’s some pithy scripture quote about not squabbling among believers.
Sheesh.
Frank, ignore all the books/links people gave you. Just stick with the bible. New KJV is okay, it’s very readable. KJV is da bomb though. But in every case they are all translations. You have to go study the original words in their Aramaic/Hebrew/Chaldee/Greek froms. Not classical Greek BTW, but military Greek. You know, that Alexander of Macedon invented. But despite all the confusing stuff, dude just read the bible, all the way through. The Lord laid it out as he did. Everything you need to know for this world in about 80 hours of reading. Pretty good editing job. Reader’s Digest ain’t got nothing on the Lord.
P.S. Some of you guys just have given Frank flat out wrong teaching. Knock it off. Number one, the day the firmament is created it is NOT called good. Number two there is water above the firmament. Number three the holders of light (which we call stars are IN the firmament. And to top it all off the water ABOVE the firmament fell THROUGH, to the earth. So you got Water|Earth|Sky/Firmament (with stars!!)|Water. This is how it was, well pre flood anyway. All of these details are important. And you guys are destroying these facts by glossing them. You will hurt Frank if you are not careful.
Beo,
Well, if you’re NOT using circular logic, you would realize that 1) fossils are rocks, and they aren’t fragile, and 2) geologic uplift takes place over millions of years and is actually quite slow and gentle ;).
Yeah, G-d passed down all the details of the Big Bang to a bunch of illiterate shepherds. Tell me another one!
If you rode a geological shift to work, it would be surprisingly smooth ride… but you’d be quite late and the boss would yell at you.
Frank, that was the best laugh I’ve had in a while.
Will you be covering the entire Old Testament? (pleasepleaseplease)
Tink,
I’m going to try.
Hopefully the coverage won’t be as geological shifts.
Points to Ponder About the Flood and Noah’s Ark
By Dr. Kent Hovind
Second Peter 3:3–8 tells us that people who scoff at the Bible are “willingly ignorant” of the Creation and the Flood. In order to understand science and the Bible, we must not be ignorant of those two great events in Earth’s history.
1. Over 500 Flood legends from all parts of the world have been found. Most have similarities to the Genesis account.
2. Noah’s ark was built only to float, not to ail anywhere. Many ark scholars believe that the ark was a “barge” shape, not a pointed “boat” shape. This would greatly increase the cargo capacity. Scoffers have pointed out that the largest sailing ships were less than 300 feet because of the problem of twisting and flexing the boat. These ships had giant masts and sails to catch the wind. Noah’s ark needed neither of those and therefore had far less torsional stress.
3. Even using the small 18-inch cubit (my height is 6’1″ and I have a 21- nch cubit), the ark was large enough to hold all the required animals, people, and food with room to spare.
4. The length-to-width ratio of 6 to 1 is what shipbuilders today often use. This is the best ratio for stability in stormy weather.
5. The ark may have had a “moon-pool” in the center. The larger ships would have a hole in the center of the bottom of the boat with walls extending up into the ship. There are several reasons for this feature: a) It allowed water to go up into the hole as the ship crested waves. This would be needed to relieve strain on longer ships. b) The rising and lowering water acted as a piston to ump fresh air in and out of the ship. This would prevent the buildup of dangerous gasses from all the animals on board. c) The hole was a great place to dump waste into the ocean without going outside.
6. The ark may have had large drogue (anchor) stones suspended over the sides to keep it more stable in rough weather. Many of these tones have been ound in the region where the ark landed.
7. Noah lived for 950 years. Many Bible scholars believe the pre-Flood people were much larger than modern man. Skeletons over 11 feet tall have been found. If Noah were taller, his cubit (elbow to fingertip) would have been much larger also. This would make the ark larger by the same ratio.
8. God told Noah to bring two of each kind (seven of some), not of each species or variety. Noah had only two of the dog kind, which would include the wolves, coyotes, foxes, mutts, etc. The “kind” grouping is probably closer to our modern family division in taxonomy, and would greatly reduce the number of animals on the ark. Animals have diversified into many varieties in the last 4,400 years since the Flood. This diversification is not anything similar to great claims that the evolutionists teach.
9. Noah did not have to get the animals. God brought them to him (Genesis 6:20, “shall come to thee”).
10. Only land- dwelling, air-breathing animals had to be included on the ark (“in which is the breath of life,” Genesis 7:15,22).
11. Many animals sleep, hibernate, or become very inactive during bad weather.
12. All animals (and people) were vegetarian before and during the Flood according to Genesis 1:20–30 with Genesis 9:3.
13. The pre-Flood people were probably much smarter and more advanced than people today. The longer life spans, Adam’s direct contact with God, and the fact that they could glean the wisdom of many generations that were still alive would greatly expand their knowledge base.
14. The Bible says that the highest mountains were covered by 15 cubits [20 feet] of water (Genesis 7:20). This is half the height of the ark. The ark was safe from scraping bottom at all times.
15. The large mountains, as we have them today, did not exist until after the Flood when “the mountains arose and the valleys sank down” (Psalm 104:5–9; Genesis 8:3–8).
16. There is enough water in the oceans right now to cover the earth 8,000 feet deep if the surface of the earth were smooth.
17. Many claim to have seen the ark in recent times in the area in which the Bible says it landed. There are two primary schools of thought about the actual site of the ark. Much energy and time have been expended to prove both views. Some believe the ark is on Mt. Ararat, covered by snow (CBS showed a one-hour special in 1993 about this site). Others believe the ark is seventeen miles south of Mt. Ararat in a valley called “the valley of eight” (eight souls on the ark). The Bible says the ark landed in the “mountains” of Ararat, not necessarily on the mountain itself.
18. The continents were not separated until 100–300 years after the Flood (Genesis 10:25). The people and animals had time to migrate anywhere on earth by then.
19. The top 3,000 feet of Mt. Everest (26,000 –29,000 feet) is made up of sedimentary rock packed with seashells and other oceandwelling animals.
20. Sedimentary rock is found all over the world. Sedimentary rock is formed in water.
21. Petrified clams in the closed position (found all over the world) testify to their rapid burial while they were still alive, even on top of Mount Everest.
22. Bent rock layers, fossil graveyards, and polystrata fossils are best explained by a Flood.
23. People choose to not believe in the Flood because it speaks of the judgment of God on sin (2 Peter 3:3–8). (24:38,39 continued)
Wow, where do I even start with that one? I completely agree with #20, but please provide me with something here…back up these claims of “11 foot tall skeletons”. This I’ve gotta see! Pics, please?
Point of agreement: There was indeed a very great flood in the Middle East about 6,000 years ago, that would have covered most of that area with water. And if a guy named Noah built a huge boat just like Genesis says, I hope it is found in Turkey. Read the Pellegrino book, it’s fascinating.
oh no fair! I did not know you had bullet points!
And all those ‘may have beens’, ‘could have beens’, many believed to have beens’ and ‘might have beens’ to add weight to your arguments.
You are right, it is not hundreds of years of logical, verifiable data that convince me there was no Earth covering flood. It is that I choose not to believe because it shows God to be one nasty guy, ready to MURDER thousands of men, women, CHILDREN and BABIES in the single most painful way a human being can die, struggling to the point of sheer exhaustion to keep there infant’s heads above the rising waters only to finally have their energy give out, gulp in that first ‘breath’ of seawater, setting their lungs on fire with the burning of oxygen deprevation, seeing their babies eyes BUG OUT as they asphyxiate, pleading with their little faces for the mommies to tell them why they were being tortured this way when they were just children. Then, just as the mother gets a second burst of energy and thinks, just maybe, she is going to be able to save her child’s life, a couple of trees, the flotsam and jetsam of an earth-scrubbing flood, come raging past, crushing her baby between them and she drifts into the depths with that image as her last before she finally expires.
If that is what you CHOOSE to believe, you go right ahead. I would rather believe that is not something God would do, that is some BS made up by corrupt men trying to command obedience and that God is horrified that you people think so little of him as to believe he is capable of such a thing.
Now, go find some verse that points out that while everyone drowned, it was not unpleasant so that makes everything okay.
Someone needs to find the brain surgeon who decided to put this story at the begining of the book and smack him upside the head. It’s like when you try and read “The Fellowship of the Ring” and have to slog through the first 200 pages.
Skip ahead to the JC stuff. It doesn’t rely that heavily on the OT.
just really quick, baby animals in the ark fit better, and Ham made fun of his dad.
a href=”http://www.reasons.org/index.shtml”>resons.org
CHRIS IS A LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE….
the site that i posted and reposted(hopefully) here does not talk about the earth being 2000 years old. Spend about 1/2 hour of your life looking at well thought out science. Hugh Ross is not a young earth Creationist he is a on the cutting edge even with secularists…here is a start(dang hope this works)
a href=”http://www.reasons.org/about/8_myths_about_rtb.shtml
“>myths about reasons.org
First off, most of you guys miss the actual point of the scriptures. It is faith. You can’t just look at everything from a scientific point of view. I beilieve the story of Noah’s Ark to be literal. You have the most correct version of the Bible, Fank, stick with the King James Version. Another thing, I don’t think the world was geologically the same before the flood as it is today. In Genisis it says that the earth was one land mass. Or, pangea. I think that during the flood the earth began to change and break into continents. I think that the Garden of Eden was here in America, and that Noah was near that area, though in Pangea you can’t be exactlly sure. But, stick to your faith, don’t relly on the world. The world is wrong 99% of the time. Remember, the world got wiped out by a flood once.
DAGNABIT! why cant i post a url correctly…??DANG WYSIWYG’s made me stupid
I think we should all call him Fank now 🙂
“CHRIS IS A LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE….”
wow, I have not heard that in 30 years. Thank you.
I did go back and look again at your site, and you are right, yours is the one that pulls the old “hey what’s 6 days to god? its as long as he wants” and “there are multuple interpretations of the word ‘Day’ it can mean anything from 24 hours to “a really long time” depending on how it is translated.
I just did not bother with that in my post above. It is a cop out, like ‘God works in mysterious ways’. Saying a day is however long you need it to be to fit the theory you are already supporting is a dodge. And I perused about 8 of the articles under the category “Age of the Earth” this time, btw.
And I have spent 20 years of my life looking at ‘well thought out science’. You should try it.
“CHRIS IS A LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE….”
wow, I have not heard that in 30 years. Thank you.
I did go back and look again at your site, and you are right, yours is the one that pulls the old “hey what’s 6 days to god? its as long as he wants” and “there are multuple interpretations of the word ‘Day’ it can mean anything from 24 hours to “a really long time” depending on how it is translated.
I just did not bother with that in my post above. It is a cop out, like ‘God works in mysterious ways’. Saying a day is however long you need it to be to fit the theory you are already supporting is a dodge. And I perused about 8 of the articles under the category “Age of the Earth” this time, btw.
And I have spent 20 years of my life looking at ‘well thought out science’. You should try it.
sorry for the double post, something wigged out. May have been me :^)
I do poopoo pants head…ok then. You should know that i am not trying to change your mind or try to enlighten anybody. I wonder what the use is to even posting my thoughts here most of the time…i just come to laugh it up. But to me the truth is simple. The real testimony of God’s existence is a changed heart…
Don’t be afraid to post your thoughts. If you notice, I never ‘attack’ anyone personally for posting their thoughts (some people here do) though I will retaliate if necessary. Otherwise, it is just debate, and debate is FUN! I am glad you have faith. Honestly.
Oh, and…
I am rubber you are glue! WHatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!
Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck
have a great day!
Get Real,
Judgment comes upon those who break Gods commands. Sin is lawlessness. God Judged and punished those on the earth because of their sin and someday he will do it again.
However, let’s surmise for a moment that there is no Judgment Day and no hell. That would mean that the Bible is a huge hoax, in which more than forty authors collaborated (over a period of 3,000 years) to produce a document revealing God’s character as “just.” They portrayed Him as a just judge, who warned that He would eventually punish murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. Each of those writers (who professed to be godly) therefore bore false witness, transgressing the very commandments they claimed to be true.
It would mean that Jesus Christ was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgment were there-fore false. It would also mean that He gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs who have given their lives for the cause of Christ. Add to that the thought that if there is no ultimate justice, it means that the Creator of all things is unjust–that He sees murder and rape and couldn’t care less, making Him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice.
Here’s the good news, though, if there is no hell: You won’t know a thing after you die. It will be the end. No heaven, no hell. Just nothing. You won’t even realize that it’s good news.
Here’s the bad news if the Bible is right and that there is eternal justice: You will find yourself standing before the judgment throne of a holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed. Think of it. A holy and perfect Creator has seen your thought-life and every secret sin you have ever committed. You have a multitude of sins, and God must by nature carry out justice. Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. Ask Him to bring to remembrance your secret sexual sins, the lies, the gossip, and other idle words. You may have forgotten your past sins, but God hasn’t. Hell will be your just desert (exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This is the claim of the Bible. If you don’t believe it, it is still true. It will still happen.
Yet, there is good news–incredibly good news. We deserve judgment, but God offers us mercy through the cross. He paid our fine so that we could leave the courtroom. He destroyed the power of the grave for all who obey Him. Simply obey the gospel, and live. By doing that you will find out for yourself that the gospel is indeed the “gospel truth.” Jesus said that if you obey Him, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free (see John 8:31,32).
Get on your knees today, confess and forsake your sins. Tell God you are truly sorry, then trust the Savior as you would trust yourself to a parachute.
It’s not -‘aight-; it’s a’ight. That’s all I have to say.
You asshat!
First off, God just forgot about them? What in the world was He up to? It makes me wonder if God has other universes to play with and we’re just a side interest.
don’t you understand? the universe is hanging on Gods Christmas tree!
Adrianne ” regardless of whether or not there actually were giants, noah, jonah’s whale, etc.: if they couldn’t have existed, then God has no power ”
What baloney. Even if God is “only” “the sum total of all things” as envisioned by Einstein that would still make Him all powerful. It would make Him Everything.
Put me on the team that believes that the Bible can be interpretted as metaphor–and needs no “scientific” backing whatsoever.
You you calling an asshat! you dickhelmet!
And I hope God did not string more than 3 sets of lights together on the same outlet cause that could cause a fire.
Hey, I think that most of you guys are missing the real point of the scriptures. And that is faith. I believe that the story of Noah’s Ark is literal. You can’t look at the scriptures scientifically. Nothing in there would be true if you did. another thing, I think that the Garden of Eden was in America. I believe that the earth was in a pangea form before the flood. I believe that when the flood happened the continents started to form. No one knows for sure. But if you have faith you will believe despite any crack-head trying to dissmiss the Bible and Gospel of God. That is what I believe.
In a follow up, I forgot to add, don’t go believing what the world tells you is right. The world is wrong 99% of the time. Remember, the earth was wiped out by a flood from God once. Stick to faith.
Truly Concerned:
Yeah, if the bible really is the correct way.
What about all the other religions that have existed and continue to exist today? All of them were wrong, I guess?
The odds of your’s being right are pretty slim, seems to me.
When you get to the pearly gates and god asks to see your animist credentials or whether you have sacrificed a virgin to him recently, what are you going to think then when you begin your trip down to hell?
Get over yourself, dude. Get off your knees (hmm, what other activity requires you spend an inordinate amount of time on your knees) and live in the real world. The bible is fiction.
Interesting point. These passages say that God said man’s life will be one-hundred and twenty years. And, in a spooky coinkidink, the longest lived man on Earth (in recorded scientific history, anyway) lived to be 120, and some scientists have said that they believe that is around the maximum that we can naturally live.
RE: adam and eve living 900+ years
YHWH said that they would surely die in the day that they ate of the forbidden fruit.If you calculate their ages, you will find that nither of them reached the age of 1,000. I am guessing this because i support the theory of the 7,000 year creation. Basically put, each of the Creators days is equal to 1,000 human years, this would mean that in YHWH’s time it would have taken Him 7 days to make everything, but to us it would be 7,000 years. This would mean that when YHWH said to them that they would die in the day that they ate the forbidden fruit he was probably talking about his time, which would be 1,000 years to us.
The Water Canopy
I also support the theory of the water canopy, and the firmament seperated the waters that were above the earth from the waters that were below the earth.
Another thing to think of is: If there was a water canopy, the conditions of the earth would be different. I.E. the air that is currently where the water canopy was, would be forced under the o-zone, thus creating a hyperbaric condition(double to triple atmosphere). This would make everything bigger and stronger. Human beings would be taller(cubit would be bigger), and so would trees, plants and animals.
Before you go and dispute me by saying “well you just said that animals would be bigger too…” think of this: Maybe Noah took baby animals, he do not need full grown animals, he just needed animals.
Also, I believe that the Ark had what is called a Moon Pool, therefore it would be able to circulate the air inside the ark, as well as make it able to combat the waves a little better.
The world is CorruptImagine this: You are a cow, you live in a field with other cows, and all is good. Every couple of days a truck comes and takes a couple of your friends away. All of your friends rejoyce because they believe that the truck is merely moving the other cows to another, bigger field, with more grass to eat.
One day, a rebel cow runs up to you and your friends and says, “Hey, you know that truck that comes every couple of days? Well, it does not take the other cows to another field, it actually takes the other cows to a factory where they chop them up, package them up, and sell them as food for the humans.”
You are afraid, and do not know what to think, your friends immediatly start ridiculing the rebel cow by saying, “you cannot be right, and anyway, I have shares in that truck so just hush up and don’t cause a ruccus.”
This is exactly what is happening today in our world, when we try to Witness to someone, they tell us that we cannot be right, and to hush up because their money is where the evils is.