Here someone putting bare all her beliefs, and it’s strange it seems like that takes a lot of courage these days. You probably will think differently on a lot of things than her, but it’s worth a read.
Here someone putting bare all her beliefs, and it’s strange it seems like that takes a lot of courage these days. You probably will think differently on a lot of things than her, but it’s worth a read.
thanks Frank…kick ass.
Wow, I’m honoured to be noticed. Thanks so very much!
For the best in news and ther stuff..(can’t say satire..because Frank owns that word) come to behindenemyheadlines.com..thanks alot frank!
Sorry to bring up a new subject, but I wanted to do it somewhere. Here’s my question about the Missions: wouldn’t it be even more secretive if Frank just e-mailed them to the people on the fanclub list? Then no one could come to any conclusions by looking at the dates of the Mission postings. No one not on the list would have any idea at all that anything was going on, rather than them being able to see that SOMETHING is being communicated every so often from Frank to his readers. Am I wrong here?
But Paulski, secrets are no fun if nobody knows you have them.
–Frank, thanks for posting that link… it was very motivating to read. I think that she is a very good example of a very good person. I can and will respect anyone for their religious beliefs- so long as they don’t include exterminating all who don’t believe as they do.
–A lady of such conviction is a treasure to this world.
RedTigress – beautiful expansion on the principle of “Live and Let Live.”
I have some comments/thoughts, but I’d should probably post them on your blog.
“I believe in God just because I do”
Brilliant. And I believe I won’t die if I jump off a cliff.
There’s a reason people demand proof for things. And that reason is because we want to find out facts about that crazy entity called “reality”. I have pretty good proof that jumping off a cliff will kill you, the kind of proof I don’t have for the existence of God. I don’t call the idea that jumping off a cliff will kill you a “belief”, I call it knowledge, based on a little something called “facts”.
You theists kill me.
Excellent! Then my job here is finished. Muwahahahhaha.
I would like the athiest to explain how the universe began without the influence of a God. You are not allowed to use untestable pseusoscientific drivel to back up your statements. The Big Bang is acceptable, of course, as it really did happen. We can observe red shift and background radiation and all that good stuff. But please, explain to me, and all the other ignorant faith-based human beings out here, just how the Big Bang started. You know… up and happened? Out of nothing? You could use the quark shift arguement, stating that a highly improbable quark shift occured, creating the universe. However, since the bizzare laws of quark behavior didn’t exist before the universe began, it is not a valid arguement. Also, you may not use superstring theory, as superstrings did not exist before the universe began. These are very insignificant handicaps that I’m sure the vast fountain of scientific data will overcome.
I, however, will offer a simple suggestion as to how the universe began. I will use an ancient arguement. It is called “Makam”. It appears that during a much more enlightened time in Muslim civilization, they managed to come up with a logical arguement proving the existance of God. Three simple steps,
Step one: Everything that begins to exist, has a cause. Why, of course. Naturally. Cause and effect relationships are the very basis of reason. This force acted and this is the result. As I go to sleep at night, I do not fear that a ten-ton steel ingot will form in the air above me and crush my rib cage. Things don’t happen for no reason, after all.
Step two: Nothing is infinite. Also another no-brain arguement. Not only has modern science and astronomy determined that the universe is finite, but basic mathematics have proven it as well. Way back then, Muslim thinkers determined that infinity is a mathematical irrationality. Lets say I have an infinite bag of marbles. I give you every marble. Now I have none and you have infinity. Now I give you every other marble. I have infinity and you have infinity. I gave you less marbles in the second example, yet we wind up with more marbles total… the irrationality of infinity is cause enough to state that it does not exist. Furthermore, an infinite universe would have an infinite amount of hydrogen, condensed into an infinite number of stars, and have had infinite amounts of time to fuse into helium. So… how much hydrogen would be left? None. All the stars would burn out of it. Heat waste and entropy in general would dissipate all matter and energy forever, or if otherwise, condense all matter in the universe into a black hole. Since that is clearly not the case, the universe is clearly not infinite, but began a certain amount of time back.
Step Three: Since the universe clearly began to exist at some point, and everything that begins to exist requires a cause, we can determine that some force created the universe. To the modern atheist, blindly following his professors, the universe began at the Big Bang, the cause being an indeterminable, untestable triviality open for irrational speculations and junk science. To the theist who embraces the very scientific facts you hold dear, modern, serious science strongly suggests that the universe was created by something beyond it.
But wait! There’s even more! Consider the balance of our universe’s natural laws. Specifically just one, the amount of mass hydrogen turns into energy as it fuses. Something like 0.006 percent of hydrogen’s mass is lost and turned into energy. If 0.007 percent was converted, the stars would have already burned through the universe’s supply of hydrogen. If 0.005 percent, stars would not form at all. There are far, far more examples than this.
If you are a truely open-minded individual, looking to seek out the facts, I encourage you to consider reading of an athiest’s plunge into scientific truth. Lee Strobel had felt that there was no God, that the universe was scientifically explained, and that life could form readily on its own. But then he had a little doubt. He applied his skills as a journalist and delved into the matter, interviewing prominent members of the scientific community. His book is called “Case for the Creator”. It is deep, deep stuff.
Unless, of course, you’re close minded and feel its just a biased work of a Bible-thumper. To be honest, I felt it might be that myself. I picked it up with a skeptical look. But I read anyway, thought hard about it all, and found myself much, much better off after I was done.
So go ahead and read it, unless you’re a close-minded coward hiding behind blindly followed ideas, masquerading as proof. That’s what people demand, right? Proof?
Heh, I just might get flamed for this. Ahh well. Forgive me if I’m offensive, but its late and I’m a bit passionate on this topic.
:groan: Oh, man. I’ve been down this road before and I ain’t goin’ again!
A good religious debate is fiene very so often.
BTW, I believe in God, but I think trying to prove his existence is futile and trying to disprove it even more thatn futile.
Of course, we’ll get the answer when we die unless atheists are right, because you’ll never know. What’s the fun of bucking the majority if you never get an “I told you so” moment?
–Nikolai, that was awesome… thanks for stepping up to the plate for the rest of us “ignorant theists”.
–The truth of the matter is that we are all supposed to do what Nikolai did and attempt to instruct the truly ignorant. We are told to try and try and try to bring the message to the great unwashed. Then… when it is all over… those who heard the word but still failed to believe will have their reward… and those who heard and heeded will have their reward. It is really that simple.
Solidarity!
clambers onto a tank
Solidarity!
–Well, as an Infantry Marine, I always avoided tanks like the plague… but I’ll happily march alongside your tank, Nikolai.
–Onward and upward!
Can I kill Jacob, just because I want to?
Jayme is a “him”.
There’s so much to say about Nikolai’s post, but I’d just like to address one REALLY false point. Infinity is NOT a mathematical irrationality. Without it, we’d have no calculus.
Calculus is proven by projecting a limit to … what? … that’s right, infinity!
Sorry dude, but Newton really screwed up your theory for you. Or what is Liebnitz? Now THERE’S a holy war!
I’m Roman Catholic (a convert actually), but just to clarify something on Jacob’s behalf – Frank, logically speaking atheists don’t have to disprove God’s existance.
Which is why I think it’s funny when they try.
I have found that most atheists I talk to about God (or Jesus) give me the same answer, “There is no evidence”. Just to follow up, I always ask, “What evidence have you sought out? (books you’ve read, experts you have talked to)” Usually the answer is none.
Without getting into debate about various theological points here, anyone looking for further reading on the subjects I recommend Lee Strobel (Nikolai mentioned “The Case for a Creator” I have not read it yet) “The Case for Christ” – It follows his journey from starting out as an atheist and trying to disprove any evidence of Christ to his finding overwhelming evidence to support. And “The Case for Faith” It discusses the apologetics (defense of the faith).
For more on the creation, check out Astrophysicist Hugh Ross “The Creator and the Cosmos: How the Latest Scientific Discoveries of the Century Reveal God” or “Beyond the Cosmos: What Recent Discoveries in Astronomy and Physics Reveal About the Nature of God”
Anyways, (I think I had a point somewheres) there is a lot of information out there, you just have to be willing to look.
If you need the fear of eternal Hell to keep from hitting me over the head and stealing my shoes – fine. If you need your Blood of Christ injection to get you through the day – fine. If you need to feel you were personally sculpted by a supreme being – fine. If you’re willing to kill me for 72 virgins in some afterlife – your right to swing your Bible ends at my nose!
HOLY CRAP!!! A blogger with worse speeling than Frank! “in less” instead of “unless”???
I recognize the difficulties inherent in an atheist trying to explain the existence of the universe. However Nikolai, you must realize that those same difficulties are inherent in explaining the existence of God. Theism does not give an answer to the question, it merely side-steps the question.
Where did the universe come from? If I say it always has been, that’s not a good enough answer for you theists.
Where did God come from? He just is, he always has been. And somehow you don’t understand why I find that answer unsatisfactory.
I posit, not as a scientific fact, but what I believe to be a logical certainty: Something cannot come from nothing. If this is true, then the stuff in the universe has always been. It may have changed forms. It may have expanded into a universe and then squished down into a singularity, only to expand again into a universe a million billion times. But it is the same stuff.
Now, if what I posit is true, then if there were a God, he would have always existed as well. We solve his logical inconsistency while we solve the universe’s, since he inherits every problem of the universe that the theists dodge. However, with this premise, the God form is no longer needed.
I may check out your book this summer Nikolai. However, please realize that I come from a fundamentalist theist background, and it is unlikely that it will offer new arguments that I haven’t heard.
The reason I demand evidence for my beliefs is that I wish to remain in contact with the real world. With the same standard of evidence as you use for your God, I could believe in the existence of invisible benevolent unicorns or invisible cacti people who play yahtzee on sundays. With such beliefs I would likely be locked up in an institution, but fundamentally they differ not from the beliefs of the theists.
If you could tell me the reasons why you don’t believe in all the other religions in the world, then I can tell you the reason I don’t believe in yours as well. It is the same reason. It is without evidence, and it seems silly. And despite being so tenuous, people waster a TON of their time on it.
God is just an excuse to be intellectually sloppy. There are some questions that it is hard for philosophers to answer. However, theists don’t answer them either. They just dodge the questions. Why is something so? Because God says so. Why does God say so? Because he just does.
Rather than accepting the numb comfort of theism, we should continue to search vigorously for truth even if we at first fail. If humans did not search outside of God for any answers, the modern world as we know it would not have been raised up. As theism and science seperated, science prospered and medicines and electronics and automobiles were invented. As theism was removed from political and ethical philosophy, men formed secular philosophies about the rights of man, which created the atmosphere of freedom of thought and action which has allowed mankind to thrive.
Hundreds of years ago, we did not know why people got sick. What if people just said that God did it, and never bothered to search for the answers from the natural world? We would have never found bacteria or viruses, and modern medicine would not exist.
There are many things we do not understand about the universe today. To say “God did it” means to never know more about the issue. To say that means to have our knowledge stop, right here in its tracks. Let us search. Let us not be content with belief.
I do not claim to know everything. I am not trying to dodge the issue when I say I do not know how the universe started. Had I lived before Newton, I would have said I do not know why things fall to the ground, and theists would have used it as proof of the inadequacy of my beliefs. However, Newton did explain gravity and then I would have been vindicated. Today, I do not claim to know things I do not. That again does not mean it will always be so.
Science and Faith I’ve often argued will not agree. The reason is because people are little. God Is BIG. Since we cannot know the mind of God people will continue to try to explain him away. Faith requires seeing past the little to the BIG. I know God is there and my proof is that I live and he lives in me.
Jacob,
I’m glad you mentioned Science in your statements. Riddle me this? Why did science develop in Christian Nations not in Atheist Nations?
My Answer is because a world created by God has order a world that occurred based of random things does not. What is your explanation?
“I know God is there and my proof is that I live and he lives in me.”
That’s great. Unfortunately, he doesn’t live in me so he must not want me to believe in him.
All right, I’m glad I got some interest sparked. Some people agree with me, and that’s a great thing. Some people don’t, and thats cool as well. I’m not trying to say that God is the final solution to all problems. If you are a person of faith, he certainly is, but if you are a skeptic, he should remain in your mind as a possibility and not an archaic notion to be thrown out. I’m also not trying to say that my God is the only God; although I personally believe that he is, it would be wrong and immoral to force these ideas upon you through coersion. We can, however, discuss the matter as civilized human beings with differing points of view, unless you’re a close-minded hippie. Thats what we hate about the extreme Left, correct? Close minded thinking? Refusal to consider other ideas?
I personally considered, at one time in my existance, that Communism might be a decent idea if you got it to work. Hey, Stalin did manage to build world-class ironworks in Siberia during the Five Year Plan and the finest mechanized army before the Purge. However, when you consider the cost of Stalin’s regime, you realize that his industrialization of Russia and defeat of the Fascist war machine was paid for in tens of millions of Soviet lives taken in near slave-labor, gulags and purges. You can’t justify something like that. And so, as I learned more about the subject, I closed the book on pinko commie bastards (A clarification: My handle, Nikolai, is Russian… but I’m an 8th generation Kentuckian. I just think the name is cool. “Go back to Russia” they shout on Unreal Tournament. I reply in my limited Russian vocabulary, all profane)
I’ve looked at both sides and I’ve concluded that, at this time, God is the most likely source of the universe. Which God? Well, that’s my choice. Its subjective, emotional, not something I can debate with you. It is a faith, and I’ll respect any peaceful, not psychotic religion (cough, radicalislam, cough). But for those curious, I’m a strange blend of Lutheran and Baptist. I like the formality of one and the fire of the other. .
I don’t know where this all ran off to. Anyway, if you’re itching to hear my witty retorts and scathing commentary, I’m afraid I won’t oblige. If you want to hear the arguement, check out “The Case for a Creator”. He does a far, far better job that I do arguing the point. Everything, from the occilating universe theory to Steven Hawking’s hourglass universe, gets debunked by leading scientists. Of course, if you’d rather pick on a weak debator on the internet, you can wail on me while I’m away over the weekend. No, really. Feel free. It only discredits you.
Anyway, Darin has the point. If you want to say that there is no evidence for God, Jesus, Allah, what have you not, you’ve got to look first. Without a doubt, check out the “Case for” series. Darin’s books are probably pretty good too, I might look into them myself. Until you’ve looked at both sides, you shouldn’t bash one or the other. And when something new comes up, reconsider.
Keep seeking for the truth, no matter what. That’s what being Right is all about.
(Oh. If someone was picking on my spelling, I wrote that at 4:30, and I’m writing this buzzed on caffeine.)
Anyway, talk away. I’ve got a date to get prepped for.
–Jacob, He wants very much for you to believe in Him.
–You strike me as the type of thinker who thinks so much and so deeply that he fails to think of what is right under his nose. The answers to your questions are in the bible. God’s own word is there. If you study it and study it, then you will find that most, if not all, of your questions will be answered. If you listen to people who actually know His word, then you will hear phrases like “He said so BECAUSE…” Not just “because He said so.” Get it?
–Robert hit the most salient point right on the head: Faith means realizing that, no matter how much it hurts our super intellect and super ego, we are NOT omnicient. So, for you to say that because Jacob can’t understand how God has “always been”, then it absolutely must be false. That is the very height of egomania, and the very crux of any atheistic dogma.
–The only reason God does not “live in you” is because you haven’t asked Him to. The greatest gift He gave you is your free will… and you are free to use it as you wish– either to do as He wants and live forever, or to not.
–By the way, I am not familiar with the “numb comfort” you mention. I have, though, felt the exact opposite of that many times- usually when I think of how much God loves me and how great He is. It is quite a rush, and not at all “numbing”. You should try it sometime… it will amaze you and make you feel like doing worthwhile things with your life.
A couple of points to finish up:
I will read the book you recomended Nikolai. When I argue with people about school choice, I usually end up handing them a copy of Milton Friedman’s “Free to choose”, because Friedman tears into the argument better than I ever could. Similarly, if you say that this book offers a good argument, I shall consider it.
and Devil Dog,
“The only reason God does not “live in you” is because you haven’t asked Him to. The greatest gift He gave you is your free will… and you are free to use it as you wish– either to do as He wants and live forever, or to not.”
I have asked him to. I’ve gotten down on my knees and cried and prayed. No luck.
It hasn’t been easy for me to leave the faith of my parents. They have disowned me and no longer allow me to live at home. I now have to balance the near-impossible task of going to school at a top 25 university while supporting myself. It’s not easy. It’s only because my desire for truth is stronger than my desire for comfort that I forge ahead.
I would have taken any sign from God as proof of his existence, rather than had to tread the path I have. Anything, even an emotional surety or comfort, would have convinced me in the distraught state in which I prayed.
But God did not answer. And I moved on to find my own way.
Either God does not want me to know him, or he does not exist, or he does not interfere in the affairs of men. Either way it doesn’t say much for christianity.
–Jacob, a quick story for you… take it as you wish.
–A pastor of a popular church was known for telling his congregation, “The Lord will protect you, The Lord will handle things”.
One day, a very bad storm came along and was causing flooding. The pastor stood on the front steps as the bottom floor of the church was soon covered in water. A truck with some members of the congregation came along and the driver said to the pastor, “Get in, Reverend, we’ll get you to safety.”
“No,” replied the pastor. “God will save me!”
Soon, the water was much higher, and the pastor had to go to the second story of the church and look out the window. Along came a motor boat with more rescuers. “Come on, Reverend,” they shouted.
Again, the pastor replied, “No! The Lord is my saviour and He will deliver me!”
Before long, the entire church was under water, save for the very tip of the roof and the steeple. Hanging from it, the pastor saw a helicopter approach. From a loudspeaker, the pilot said, “Stand by, we’ll throw you a rope!”
Waving off the helo, the pastor shouted, “NO! GOD WILL SAVE ME!”
The pastor then drowned.
In heaven now, he approached God and proclaimed, “All those years I spent telling people that You would provide and You would save… how could you have let me drown like that??”
The Almighty looked at the pastor and calmly replied, “I sent the truck, then I sent the boat, then I sent the helicopter… what else did you want?”
–Jacob, this silly little story is a good illustration of a trap that many, many people fall into. Perhaps you, like the pastor, have been expecting angels and lightning bolts and chariots of fire… when the real answer is how we are all here to do His miracles and help one another.
–In Christianity, in fact, Jesus gave only one directive that he called a Commandment… and it was to “Love one another as I have loved you.”
–That, to me, is how God’s work gets accomplished in this world (which is, as stated in the bible, actually belongs to the devil). We exist to do right by each other… to care for each other and the earth… to LOVE each other and to LOVE Him.
–Once you “surrender” to a truth of this deceptively simple magnitude, there is no greater form of understanding. Everything starts to make more sense.
–What it takes is a willingness to see past one’s own intellect and ego- which is a very, very tough thing for many people.
–Sorry this was so long, Jacob… but you seem like a sincere person, and I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I didn’t try to help you find your way. If it means anything at all to you, I’ll say a prayer that the truth will come to you someday.
May we all find the truth, whatever that may be.
As atheist/theist threads go, this one was the most civil I’ve ever seen. Hats off to everyone.
You have a mighty fine audience here, Frank.
Um, in case anyone here commented on my article at B.E.H., I answered them in this week’s article. You can check it out at http://www.behindenemyheadlines.com 🙂
Some great comments and discussions here, I was reading. (Sorry, I just realized that kind of sounded like something Yoda would say!)
Late’!
Um, if anyone over here had posted comments or questions on B.E.H in response to my article, this week’s article I devoted to the response to those questions. If you wanna go check it out at http://www.behindenemyheadlines.com feel free! 🙂
Thanks again for posting that! 😀
oops! I’m such a spaz! I thought it didn’t go through so I posted twice! Sorry!
Smug atheists–they’re almost as much fun to watch as dirty hippies getting stomped.
Jacob the Libertarian:
“If you could tell me the reasons why you don’t believe in all the other religions in the world, then I can tell you the reason I don’t believe in yours as well. It is the same reason. It is without evidence, and it seems silly. And despite being so tenuous, people waste a TON of their time on it.
God is just an excuse to be intellectually sloppy.”
You poor sap. Take a minute, and think about what you’re saying, and who you’re saying it to.
The Age of Reason is, what, about three hundred years old? Well, excluding the johhny-come-latelys like the Hari Krishnas, the Scientologists and the Elvis worshippers, most religions are, oh, a couple of thousand years old. Or more.
So on sheer numbers alone, they’d open a big ol’ can of whupass on the atheists, if it ever came to that.
But of course, it won’t. It’s sort of like against their religion.
However, they are willing to die for their beliefs, and those that do are celebrated as heroes, martyrs and saints.
Got anybody willing to die for, um, Satre? Locke? Hobbes? Deconstructionism?
Didn’t think so.
Leave the theists alone, and thank your non-existent god that they’re not forcibly converting you, hmm?