Two things:
First, a reader emailed asking for gun advice. Yes, asking me, I know, it’s hard to believe. Anyway, I told her what I know, which is that all my favorite guns are the pretty guns. She and her husband have recently decided to become gun owners. (Let’s say it together: Awwwww!) They’re looking for home and personal defense and want something that’s not going to take ammo that is so expensive as to require the selling of their first-born.
Of course, I love my Walter P99 (current have gun will travel gun) and Mr. Shiny (the stainless-steel Mil-Spec 1911 that sleeps near me), and once I’m super-accurate with my Pop-Pop (the Taurus Ultra-Lite .38 special), I’ll love it too. I don’t like Glocks, because they’re ugly.
For ammo, we like prefrag’d and hollow points for defense. But we mostly shoot FMJs at the range.
So anyone else have advice?
Second, anyone get fanny pack discrimination? I bought a black leather fanny pack with built in gun holster recently. I wear it when I walk the dog. The pouch has room for dog treats, keys, wallet, cell phone, and either the Pop-Pop or the P99. When I’m not with the dog, I have my purse instead.
Well, today was Doggie School day, so I wore the pouch with all my purse contents in it to make it easier. It’s a little difficult to keep the purse on the shoulder while leaning down to give the doggie a treat, so this was much better.
After Doggie School, I brought the dog home and then went to run some errands. One of the errands was a stop at Walgreens for a passport photo. I didn’t have time before one appointment to switch from pouch to purse, so I wore the pouch, as it had my essentials in it. I should note that I didn’t have the gun in the pouch, it was in the car.
When I got to the passport photo counter, the lady working the counter immediately stared at my pouch and then looked at me really weird. This time I actually wasn’t being paranoid. I knew what she was thinking. She took my picture and told me there would be a wait, so I browsed the store (Walgreens is one of my very favorite stores to browse — office supplies, candy, household appliances, photo albums, and lotion! Weeeee!). I’m not kidding you, every time I turned down a new aisle, a new Walgreens employee just happened to follow me onto the aisle. I’m telling you, it was a thing of beauty. They had it so well coordinated, too, like they said, “Code Black Pouch” in their invisible earpieces and went into action. The best part was when the manager came over to the candy aisle to watch me look at the boxes of Nerds. Also, every time an employee would come over to me, or near me, they would stare at… The Pouch.
So does anyone else get the Pouchal Discrimination? BTW, note that I’m an incredibly paranoid person, but this time, I really wasn’t. I’ve never walked into a Walgreens where there were more than 4 people. I’m talking double digits here.
Today I just bought a S&W mod 686 and a CZ rifle in .22LR
Go guns!
Sarahk,
Just cause you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they AREN’T after you…
XXX
Probably thought you were a shoplifter.
They should get a mossberg 12 or 20 gauge shotgun with an 18 1/2″ barrel and load it with #4 shot.
If somebody doesn’t know how to handle a handgun, they are going to miss. Less than 1/2 of rounds fired by police officers hit the intended person. I have to assume that most cops have more training than newbies will put in.
Also the #4 will do enough damage to stop someone but won’t overpenetrate, go through several walls, etc.
Both the shotgun and the ammo are cheap. Get the 12 if both intended users are fairly strong. Get the 20 if not.
If they are willing to spend some time at the range and learn how to actually use guns under pressure, then they will be ready to move onto fancier hardware.
Yeah!!!! – shotties rock.
a great first gun is the walther p22. crazy cheap to shoot, reliable, reasonably priced ($2-300 brand new).
the sig p226 9mm is pretty great as well.
and you can never go wrong with an ar-15
Definitely go with a shotgun, I would recommend a Remington 870 Magnum Express but thats just a personal preference.
I picked a sig pro 40 then bought the barrel conversion to 357 sig for that big boom satisfaction. 2 guns in one and both cals have plenty of stopping power. FMJ at the NRA range and hollow point Federal personal defense stays in the mag and next to the pillow. Wife shoots a sig .380 if you want a “pretty” small carry piece. She LOVES her Galco Classic purse. Looks JUST like Coach, so no bag discrimination, just envy.
remember that seinfeld episode where george is wearing sweatpants, Jerry says:
“You know the message you’re sending out to the world with these sweat pants? You’re telling the world: I give up. I can’t compete in normal society. I’m miserable, so I might as well be comfortable.” – Jerry Seinfeld, to George Costanza
well, take that to the 10th power for the fanny pack
i have never seen a person pull off a fanny pack
Where to start… Shotguns are perfect for the house. Make sure you can handle the recoil though. I prefer a pump (Mossberg 590 w/ bayonet), but go with what you can handle. Don’t discount smaller than 12 ga or less than buckshot. In the (modest) house ranges, 12 ga #8 to #6 can be lethal. Of course, it’s not as guaranteed.
For pistols, first it must fit your hand. I don’t like Glocks because of the way the fit. It’s all personal. Second, the recoil must be manageable. Again, this is personal. I shoot a full size 1911 and don’t even think about recoil. Third, if you’re going to carry, it has to be something you’ll actually carry. Usually the bigger it is, the less likely it will actually be carried. That’s why I have a .38 snubby now. Last, it must be utterly reliable.
Find a range you can rent guns at and try some. Find what you like and buy it. Then train, train, train. IDPA and IPSC are good. I just started IDPA and get some kind of eye opener every time (tunnel vision, evaluating targets, shoot and move, front sight, draw… you gotta practice).
There’s plenty of ammo selection. I use Speer Gold Dots in the pistols and low recoil PMC #00 in the shotgun. Read lots and you’ll hear lots of opinions. Every case is different, that’s why there’s lots of guns and ammo available.
On the fanny pack – probably thought you were a shoplifter. Nobody uses fanny packs these days. 😉
Geez, we are switching to the glock, .40 cal from an older S&W. The grip fits most of us better, and the barrel being closer to the center of gravity makes the recoil much easier to control. Oh, and I’ll be able to put a laser site as a replacement for the rod…
I shoot better with the glock than the smith, though I shoot still better with my old S&W Model 65 revolver.
And I would definitely recommend a shotgun for home defense. My personal carry pistol of choice is a detonics Mk IV. There’s just something about pointing a subway tunnel at someone…
Fanny packs are SOOOOOO early 90’s. Unless ou are hiking. The its ok, but that’s because you will have a water bottle and no one can see you.
What gets me about the whole issue, is that you went straight to the passport photo person, then she said there would be a wait. If the were worried about shoplifting it would have made more sense to have you wait right there, in place. I don’t think that was the reason. I think it was fanny pack envy.
My worst Walgreens experience- seeing some homless bum dude peeing in the shaving cream display. It was near the end of an aisle and made kind of a corner with the endcap, e lookd around and tried to look like he was checking out the products, and let it flow.
So there you go. It could have been worse for you.
A Texan redneck trailer trash couple gets married and are on their honeymoon. The woman changes into a sexy outfit and lies on the bed. She looks sheepishly up at her new hubby and whispers, “Please be gentle with me. I’m a virgin.”
The man gets up screaming, grabs his trousers and runs home to tell his father.
His father comforts him by saying, “Now, now. It’ll be okay, son. If she wasn’t good enough for her own family, then she isn’t good enough for ours.”
Home defense: you just can’t beat a good shotgun, preferably in 12 gauge if you can handle the recoil. At close range, even birdshot will do the trick. And, if the intruder has a lick of common sense, the sound of the gun being racked will convince him to leave the premises in one big hurry.
Personal carry: It all depends. Larger pistols are harder to conceal; smaller pistols may not have the power to put the assailant down in one shot (and one shot is all you may get).
No matter what pistol you choose, you MUST load with good ammunition (I prefer Remington Golder Saber) and practice, practice, practice. This is a problem that many people have with small revolvers: they are so unpleasant to shoot that people tend to leave them at home when they go to the range.
All that being said, don’t look past CZ and Ruger pistols. They don’t have the cache of Glock, Sig, or even Walther, but they are reliable, accurate, and a real bargain.
I have to agree with the shotgun folks here. I keep a Mossberg 590 with a mounted Surefire 6p light by the bed. The Mossberg has a ambidextrous safety which is why I prefer it.
As for the Glock, I too thought they were ugly until I inherited a 40cal model 22. Since then I have fallen in love with these pistols and now own three. They are definately utilitarian and not very pretty, but if I had to choose one to depend on, it would be a Glock
I would suggest that your reader check with a good gun forum such as AssaultWeb for recommendations. I think your reader should go to a range that rents guns, talk to them, and rent a bunch to try. See what fits their hands, etc.
Regarding pouch carry… well, that’s why you don’t carry in a pouch. These days it screams CCW. Not that I particularly care what people think, but it’s easier to avoid hassle if nobody has a clue.
I run a Winchester 1300 with double-ought for home defense. I haven’t had any problems with it, but I have to recommend trying a variety of guns and find one that suits you. Even a .22 will work if you can consistently hit a face-sized target under stress.
As far a Walgreens, my missus and I get our lotion there as it’s $5.99 compared to $14.99 200yds down the street at the “novelty” shop.
Proud owner of a Pop-Pop here! I don’t, however, have a pouch for it. There is no Walgreens around here either, now that I think about it. No discrimination stories. Sorry.
Home-defense 20 gauge pump shotgun
Pistol- for cheap ammo a .357 Magnum use cheap .38 Special for practice and .38 +P+ for defense
And a .22 is required. pistol and rifle good for marksmanship training and small four-legged problems.
And $250-300 will get you a Yugo SKS and a about 1000 rounds.
By the way, the fanny pack screams CCW to the non-clueless and ahoplifter to the clueless. Don’t worry about braodcasting CCW with the fanny pack, almost anyone who knows what it is is bright enough to realize anyone who wants trouble would actuall conceal it.
Yay, SarahK!!!
Congrats on your first “Gun Talk” E-Mail!
When it comes to Home/Self Defense, just go with whatever you are most comfortable.
I’m not a big Glock fan, either. My .45 Commander, ACP has spoiled me rotten.
Jack.
Actually, I’m thinking of a shot-gun myself. I’d like to take up hunting (since I recently moved to Texas … and when in Rome … you know) and maybe some skeet shooting.
I don’t really know a lot about them. I was a REALLY good shot while I was in the Army. But that was an M-16. That’s really all I know (except that I graduated from Armorer school in the Army too, which was a lot of fun).
But, I’d like an inexpensive gun that is versatile (good gauge for different types of hunting), with a good selection of chokes, etc. I think I’d prefer a pump-action, but I’m open to suggestions.
Anyone?
undercover,
remington 870
SarahK I always pictured you a a Lady Smith in .38 Special w/ Glazer Safety rounds in a garter holster for some reason…
Pretty, but dependable and deadly…
Jimbo,
The term “redneck trailer trash” is no longer politically correct. We prefer the term “marginalized residents of manufactured home communities”.
For the girls out there: I just got a DeSantis Viper paddle holster for my Sig 239. DeSantis makes this and other paddle holsters with a FEMALE paddle, which means that it’s designed for women to wear (duh) by holding the handle of the gun a little farther out from the waist for comfort, and you don’t need to wear a belt with it. It’s very comfortable, in case you’re looking to get away from the fanny pack.
For SarahK and docjim505: I agree with the big bore and pump shotgun fans. My last tour in the military was outside Norfolk, VA., where the Princess Anne county sheriff’s dept would show up next week if you reported shots fired today. One of my buddies was married to a Massachusetts lady who would not have an “evil gun” in the house. They compromised: he would leave his 1911 .45–unloaded–on his nightstand with the slide locked back. He showed her how to release the slide latch. One night, she heard sounds from downstairs, and clearly heard male voices. She timidly picked up the 1911, crept to the top of the stairs, and released the slide latch, allowing the pistol to go into battery. She then heard one voice say, “What the f**k was that??” and then the sound of two or more sets of feet rapidly leaving. She is now a vigilant gun owner. On another note, I had duty at the base one weekend, and my wife heard someone messing around out back where the cars were parked. We had been having problems with auto burglaries. She quietly slid the window open, and then vigorously racked the slide on my 870. The sound of feet running, and no more burglaries.
Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make two points for the timid set.
AT the castle the queen knows how to use my 12 ga Browning auto-loader….very limited recoil with this bad boy…1st round is a handload of my own design it contains case-hardened pieces of steel shaped like little cones, very small pieces around 1/16 in diameter. 2nd round #4 high brass, 3rd round 00 buck, 4th slug, 5th slug. The best part of this weapon is its extemely noisy, if she where to miss and the perps hearing isn’t trashed by the first round…. hearing that thing load the second is chilling!
Myself I partial to my P90 .45acp with +P hollow points these pups roll out at just under 1200 ft per second, at home the fifteen round clip is in it, on the road standard 8 shot. Now I know that 15 rounds is just a tad bit excessive, besides he won’t even feel the other 14 as the 1st will have sent him on his way to another plane, but when I’m done I don’t want even the perps mother to recognize him.
WK
At last, a way to get assistance at a WalMart! ‘Cause usually you have to hunt the freaking employee down and hog tie him/her (note singular — I’m convinced that only 1 person works the floor at any given time) to get any help at all.
For personal carry I really like my Springfield .45 with tritium sights, but sometimes it’s just not practical because of attire. Dressing down, an internal hammer rig .38 snubby Smith is my ticket. But then there is my Kel-Tec .32 for the ultimate concealment. I load them all with quality hollowpoints and carry the .45 and .38 in inside-the-pant rigs on my hip. The .32 fits just about anywhere, but — this is important with a little popper like the Kel-Tec, which has no safety — if I chamber a round before pocketing the piece, it rides in a special holster of my own design that will deny accidental access to the trigger. You have to really want to pull the piece to get at it. The special holster? It’s a piece of stiff cardboard cut from a beer carton, folded and securely taped. With the Kel-Tec snugged inside, the whole package is barely larger than a deck of cards — in a .30 caliber package. But now I’m just showing off.
SIGs, Walthers, Glocks, 1911s BAH!
For proven reliability, you can’t beat a good H&K, be it a P7, Mk.23, or the piece personally endorsed by yours truly, the USP.
That is, until the much-anticipated HK45 (or whatever its name will be when it gets into production) is made available.
If course, if a .45 isn’t enough for you, I can recommend the Desert Eagle in .44 magnum. Not the best for home defense (magnum rounds tend to overpenetrate), but great to have on you if you’re going hiking in beast-infested woods.
But at any rate, great news on being looked up for gun advice.
For personal carry, I alternate between a Glock 23C and a Walther PPK for more discrete needs. For those who don’t know, the “C” stands for Compensated. Basically, you’ve got a couple of slits on the top part of the barrel which decrease the muzzle flip. The downside is that in a night shooting, the gases directed upwards might interfere with your vision on your second shot (if necessary!).
My next handgun will be a HK USP Compact in 40S&W. Very smooth.
I too keep a shottie ready to go in the safe. Mossberg 590, in my case. I’ve got the first two rounds in 00 buck followed by a slug. It’ll take me a 20 seconds or so to get the safe open, but after that, I’ll win the fight.
Regarding fanny packs, I agree that they just scream “YOU’RE NOT SUPPOSED TO NOTICE THAT I’M CARRYING A GUN HERE!” About the only thing more obvious are these vests. Maybe if someone could put the functionality of the 5.11 vest into something looking like this, then the lovely sarahk would blend in.
K Mayfield:
Do you have any issues with the 6P on a shotgun? I have a 6P I was going to mount to my 590, but Surefire doesn’t recommend it because the lamp isn’t shock isolated and the recoil is more likely to damage the lamp.
Friend had the same question about home defense, and he has two young daughters and a wife not comfortable with guns. (Wait until my wife and I take her out to the shooting range a few times, her opinion will change.) Shotguns are nice, but even the “short”ones take up a lot of room. He’s going with a revolver – .38 or .375 loaded with .38. Lots of good used .38s around. He also wants to take a carry class. About ammo – local attorney who’s a shooter warned about using anything “too aggressive”. Remember, even if the shooting is justified, you’re probably going to show up in front of a grand jury. He also suggested a firearm that doesn’t appear “too evil”,like the black shotgun with ammo strapped on, or, God forbid, an assault rifle… Be well, folks. Armed, that is.
Undercover Hippie:
I agree with Patriot Xeno: a Remington 870 is about the best all-around shotgun you can get. Plenty of different barrels that can quickly and easily be changed, making the gun into a deer gun, or a goose gun, or a dove gun, or a trap / skeet gun, or an anti-goblin gun… You get the idea.
I’m the one who asked SarahK for the advice. Thank you so much for all of the recommendations! IMAO readers are the greatest!
I held a Lady Smith at a gun shop on Saturday and the grip felt awful in my hand, but I really liked the way the Walther P22 felt. I can handle a Glock 9mm, but not a .40 — the grip is too wide on that. And the recoil on the Glock 9mm wasn’t too bad. I also really like the feel of the Sig Mosquito. I’ve also shot that one, and it felt great.
We’ve tried a Taurus sub-compact .45, and while the grip was nice, the recoil made my teeth rattle. I’ve also tried two .38 special revolvers, both Tauruses, one with a short barrel (too much recoil) and one with a 4 in. barrel (I could handle it but didn’t like it).
We’ll be heading to a shooting range in Woodbridge, VA — Shooter’s Paradise — very soon to see what they have to rent (I hope they have the Walther P22 and the Sig Mosquito — I’d like to try them in the same session so I can get a good sense of how they compare to one another). We live in Gaithersburg, MD, just outside of DC, so if anyone has recommendations for shooting ranges in the area, we’d appreciate that, too. We’ve been to the range at the NRA Headquarters when we took their Basic Pistol course, but I don’t believe they rent guns there.
We’re definitely going to look into a shotgun for long-term, but I really like handguns, so we’re looking into those first.
They were probably worried that you’d try to steal something cool, like press-on nails or those little reading glasses in a tube… you know, the “top quality” items in their selection.
Beware of fanny pack robbers!
Since most gunfights happen at night, a high quality, mounted light is going to be a big plus. I shoot quit a bit and my personal choice is the 12 Guage. If recoil is an issue, most major ammo guys are producing a light recoil load for their defence lines of shells. For practice, just get some low brass 8’s and have a blast. Using any fire arm requires practice. Most police departments shoot a couple hundred rounds a year, this is not nearly enough. Moving, shooting, and reloading at night is tough. Add duress and you really have a challenge.
Handguns are about five times harder to learn to use well, compared to a long gun. Handgun skills are also much more perishable.
Consider a formal course of instruction. Gunsite has a basic shotgun course that is great.
Hooray SarahK! As for shotguns , nothing beats a good ol’ Remington Wingmaster w/ full choke. Forget mag. shotshells. Go ’00’ for outdoors, #2 indoors. 18.5 inch barrel is good for clearing out the house, as is an extended magazine. When it comes to sidearms, any .45 ACP your comfortable with. I like hardballers for knockdown power(meaning, even if you miss any really important parts, you have time to squeeze off another one while they’re on the floor crying).Taurus makes some really pretty ones, while demonstrating cutting edge manufacturing methods and materials. As an aside, always lead with your non-shooting hand when clearing the house with a sidearm. Those “heroes” on the tube who lead with the muzzle from room to room should be forced to interrupt their dialogue with a disclaimer (i.e. I’m stupid). Keep your piece close to your body!
I would like to echo Greg’s comments about getting training if you are serious about a gun for self defense. It just ain’t enough to spend $600 on a pistol, $100 on a holster, and then blast off a few boxes of ammo per year while leaving the pistol in a night stand drawer the rest of the time. If (God forbid) you ever have to draw your pistol “for real”, there’s no time to think about what you’ve got to do: it MUST be instinctive. The only way to acquire these instinctive skills is to practice regularly and often.
I would like to recommend a couple of excellent books that address the topic of self defense shooting. The first is the classic “Kill or Get Killed” by LTC Rex Applegate, USA. While this book concerns itself with many dimensions of self-defense, including knives and bare hands, Applegate offers a number of practical training techniques that you can practice in your home. This book is available on some websites as a download; look for the title or for Marine Corps training manual FMFRP 12-80.
http://www.again.net/~steve/page7c.htm
Another excellent book is Gabe Suarez’s “Tactical Pistol Marksmanship”. Like Applegate, Suarez emphasizes the need for regular practice and discusses methods you can use in your home.
In my view, home practice is both essential and unavoidable to develop and hone combat shooting skills. Due to liability concerns, most ranges will not allow “quick draws”, moving while shooting, engaging multiple targets, etc. Further, practicing with live ammo can get to be very expensive. Naturally, if you practice such things as drawing and dry firing at home, safety is an ABSOLUTE MUST. The last thing you need is to have an accidental discharge in your home.
Careful research is useful if you plan to take a combat shooting course. Suarez argues (sensibly, in my opinion), that there may be little worth in taking a course that insists on extremely high rates of ammo consumption. It is questionable whether or not the shooter will learn the fundamentals from such courses or simply make mountainous piles of brass.
Finally, if there is a range that has IDPA matches, these can provide very useful practice as well as a lot of fun.
Good luck.
We have a Mossberg 500 12 ga. w/18.5″ barrel for home use. The shorter barrel makes for easy movement and a wider pattern. And, as noted above, the sound of a round being chambered tends to get any intruder’s attention. Between the shotgun and three rottweilers, our home defense needs are pretty well taken care of.
Eve Blue Ridge Arsenal in Chantilly VA rents guns. Not as upscale/pretty as NRA Headquarters, but a nice range with a store.
H&K USP .40
Awwww yeeeaaahhh!
My guess is that they didn’t even associate it with a “gun pouch”. Probably just a potential “stash bag” for shop-lifting. (worked in retail and know the routine). Now,..if they knew it was a gun-pouch,..they might have really freaked. (lol)
My guess is that they didn’t even associate it with a “gun pouch”. Probably just a potential “stash bag” for shop-lifting. (worked in retail and know the routine). Now,..if they knew it was a gun-pouch,..they might have really freaked. (lol)