So I gots me a nice new Bible (New King James Version). Originally, I was like, “What do I need a Bible for? I’m Catholic!” When people say, “What Jesus said was…” I interrupt and say, “But more importantly, what the pope said was…”
Still, I checked the list of Vatican approved books and the Bible was on it. So, I thought I’d give it a look-see and find out what all the hub-bub is all about.
I decided to begin with the section Genesis (GEN-EE-SUS) for some reason. Taking it slow, I read just the first three chapters. This was written by Moses, BTW, which is good to know so if I don’t like the prose I have someone to blame.
Anyway, I have a number of observations so far. First off, the start gives no information on what existed before the big bang and how many spatial dimensions there were.
Also, I noticed that what God did each day in creating the world ended with Him observing, “It was good.” It wasn’t great… but it wasn’t poor either. It was just “good.” That makes me wonder if God really spent all of each day working on the world or would He just fiddle around for part of the day and say, “Well, that’s good enough. I’m going for a smoke.”
The really disturbing part, though, is the whole Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit thing. At first glance, this is the clearest case of entrapment in all of history; I mean, God puts this tree with fruit for seemingly no other purpose than to punish Adam and Eve when they eat it. But then you get to thinking why in the world is God trying to pin some trumped up charges on Adam and Eve when he just created them?
Yeah, I think you see where this is going. The whole thing was just a setup to catch a bigger fish – namely, the devil. God creates this perfect place, an Eden if you will, with the Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit as obvious targets for the devil to spoil it all. Then God says, “It’s the seventh day, so I’m going to sleep. Yep, won’t be paying attention at all (wink) (wink).” Then the devil, in the guise of a serpent, completely falls for it. Then God is like, “Gotcha! Knew you were against me from the start! Let’s see you weasel your way out of this one!”
After His triumph, God realizes he still has Adam and Eve to deal with, so He sets them on their way out of Eden (which takes just too much upkeep). That dealt with, He drinks a beer.
And it was good.
So – and I’m not saying this is necessarily true – it looks like humanity is just a byproduct of an elaborate sting operation on the devil. Pretty heavy, huh?
This is why you take the Bible in small chunks.
First, and no offense stick to politics, cause your theological understanding is a bit lacking. (Ill be happy to explain)
🙂
Nick,
Please do explain. I am no student of the bible and thought something similar to the post when I read the first couple of chapters of Genesis. I wasn’t trying to be funny it just seemed odd.
No stick to theology I was raised a Catholic and I have forgotten almost everything.
This was a good refresher. And you managed to keep it family friendly by not mentioning the nudity.
What translation of the Bible are you reading? Sounds more casual than the Message version to me….I’m just sayin.
I’ve never really thought that the garden of eden was an entrapment scenario, nor did I think that God needed mankind to get to the devil (He was already done with the devil at that point — you’ll see that later on in the OT when they talk about the fall of Lucifer). I’m going to have to think about this one for a while…
So has everyone read the Da Vinci code yet? Brings up some fascinating information about where the current bible came from.
Several commentaries have been done on the meaning of the Eden story in scripture. Other than frank’s attempt, I don’t think Ive ever heard the “sting operation” exegesis. However, most of what Ive read suggests somthing that goes like this.
1.) God is absolute and true love
2.) Absolute and true love requires, by definition, a choice. (e.g. true love is not locking ones chosen spouse in a closet against their will to “keep them” – true love requires the spouse to return the love offered.)
3.) For true love to exist between god and man, God must offer man a choice.
4.) The choice was the original law, “Do not eat from the trees in the center of the garden.”
5.) Adam ate, and hence the historic fall of mankind, ala Judeo-Christian understanding.
A further point might be made that the fall and original sin is not a type of collective guilt, but rather is what happens when God goes from being perfectly intwined with creation to being removed. But thats the subject of another post.
Hope that helps…Nick
Can’t you fundamentalist take a joke? We Catholics poke fun at you for just this reason. It’s okay, God does have a sense of humor.
Why couldn’t the choice have been “Don’t jump in that deep dark whole that you cannot see the bottom of.”?
The I would live in Eden instead of Alabama…
I did take it as a joke, but was asked a serious question about it and responded. Not a fundamentalist (although Im no longer sure what that word means). Now silenceo papist, whilst we discuss things too lofty for your Romish mind.
Chris – Im not sure this choice is any less nebulous.
I put you in a garden, and I say Eat of any tree you want, all the fruit in the world is before you. But, there is one tree, that I dont like people to eat from.
Also keep in mind that the concept of a deep dark hole, without a concept of pain and suffering, fear, or loss (according to scripture none of these were present in the minds of pre-fall man.) would have not been “scary.”
Nick
I like this ‘Frank Reads the Bible’ thing.
okay…then instead of the fruit of knowledge, how about the fruitcake of knowledge! Nobody eats that stuff do they?
Chris,
Better yet the haggis of knowledge, Im not sure people are able to eat that.
Nick
The best explanation I’ve ever seen on the first few chapters of Genesis is found in The Unity of the Bible by Daniell Fuller. Boring title, amazing book.
Nick’s summary was good, but interesting to note that God didn’t forbid all trees in the center – he forbade just “the tree of Life.” (Ahh, I see that Nick just mentioned this). The serpent twists this when speaking to Eve, and says that God forbade them from eating anything in the center. Read the dialog in that section, and you can follow Eve’s train of thought and deception, and see her desire to become independent of God.
I think I should be let into Eden; I would never have ate the fruit if God told me not to.
But, if it were a forbidden videogame of the knowledge of good and evil that had really cool graphics, I might be more tempted…
Wow Nick….better edge off the coffee. I was with you until the “silence papist” baloney. Don’t forget, the NT was written by Catholics. A book like that cannot be too “lofty” or its authors.
Amy – actually the NT was written by greeks and jooos, and the papist dig was just a joke. Many of my friends are catholics.
No offense meant – Nick
I think Frank is onto something. It’s a good thing God was the judge as some of the dimwit judges these days woulda demanded to see probable cause or some silliness like that before allowing Him to pull it off.
about Nick’s list…I seemed to interpret Franks comments as pointing to a lack of choice which you will find supported as well. Did Adam and Eve have a choice? Did Mary have a choice? There is a catholic question. Did she say “May it be to me as you have said.” because she was permitting God?
My belief is that there is not much of a choice involved.
Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to be adopted as his sons (and daughters) through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will–
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, [ Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
We are encouraged to have a secure faith and run the race that He sets out for us in other places
Frank – Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, own at least five powerful firearms, vote for conservative presidents, and wear garlic around your neck at least once a week, and you might be able to live in eden.
(ps…This list has been severly truncated for space considerations. I have more qualifications, which I will inven—err remind you of when they serve my needs.)
Gibson – TULIP’s I presume?
I actually have an odd view on the Calvinist stuff. Have you ever read Boethius? Ancient papist philosopher and theologian. He had some great ideas.
Nick
that would be me a right wing nutjob tulip’er’ who does not avoid the hard questions. I also consider myself a catholic…just not Roman Catholic
back to the FUNNNeeee
Well since we’re being all serious: Once in a bible study, someone asked me “an apple? That’s so dumb, why didn’t he make it something cool that you would want, like a Ferrari. Why couldn’t they resist” and I said “that’s the point, we couldn’t even get that one stupid little thing right”
Speaking of morality, I wrote up an article today on the Netherlands and euthanasia.
Wait till Frank gets to the Jesus part. I think Frank could relate. See, Jesus was a party dude.
I mean, really, what was his first miracle? Healing the blind? Nope. Curing the lame? Nope. Raising the dead? nuh-uh.
It was…. changing water into wine so they could keep partying!
Remember? The wedding ran out and the party was drooping. Mary tells her Miracle Son, “You need to do something.”
He says, “Woman, it is not yet my time.” Don’t know if addressing his mother as “Woman” was a sign of endearment but I know if I said that to my mother she would have bitch-slapped me into next week. However, Mary just tells him he needed to do it so he did.
Now, I don’t have to have been witness to the actual event to picture what happened. I bet he said his, “Woman, it is not yet my time.” and she didn’t reason with him. No real mother would. I bet she gave The Look. You all know The Look. It’s the Look only a mother can give when without saying a word that lets you know you better do as she says or there will be hell to pay…
Considering the family ties that may have been the literal threat…
Plutosdad –
Personally, Im all for euthanasing the netherlands, as well as France, most of Germany, parts of London, France, Iran, Syria, Suadia Arabia, France, Canada, and France.
Nick
How about if you truncate your doctrine on predestination? Even Arianism needs to truncate something on it.
-my name is Nick too.
WHERE IS THE FUNNY IN THIS?
FRANK…your commentary was witty and fun I loved it please continue to read the bible for us and I will try clamp my fingers shut…must preserve the funny
Correction in speeeeling
Nick
BTW the the Da Vinci code is fiction…fiction. F-I-C-T-I-O-N
fiction?
fiction.
It is fiction FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
I like the point that everything was just “Good”…never awesome, or great, or even better than average.
I have often thought that, at best, we were god’s eighth grade science project, which he got a “C” on, and we have been in a shoebox under his bed ever since. He probably went on to bigger and better projects after college.
Yes gibson it is. Like the movie Titanic is a fictional story, wrapped around a historically accurate set of circumstances. Happens all the time.
and are you stamping your feet while yelling?
Gibson, do you mean that Leonardo, Elvis, and the Yeti monster DIDN’T change the gospels to conceal their real message? You leave in a fantasy, obviously, and WE (thats the royal we) have all seen through the lies.
Chris – I think the wording is actually very good, at the end. (The greek in the LXX conveys an idea of completion and perfection, as well as the Jewish understanding of Germatria shows perfection, as 7 symbolizes perfection, and it took him 6, but then he rested to make it 7 or perfectly complete.)
Nick
The “haggis of knowledge” just made me cough on my “chulapa of goodness” and almost blow my “mountain dew of hyperness” out my nose.
*live not leave, sheesh
Brass – Say five our fathers and call me in the morning.
Nick
I also have always wondered why an apple? Cause Adam and Eve had everything they could have imagined, but what they really wanted was an apple? Please, I’d trade an apple for an orange anyday, I’m just saying . . .
Oddy – It actually never says apple, just “the fruit of the tree” could have been a papaya… Traditionally, many though it was a fig, since they cover themselves with fig leaves.
Nick
The Garbonzo Beans of knowledge has a good ring to it.
May I just say that I think the Pope is one “down” individual? I love when he makes a statement. I tend to agree with every word he says.
Chris No wasn’t stomping my feet. FICTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
can we say fiction 3x fast?
And Mr Nick you lost me or I lost you or something…Yes the gospel is offensive if that is what you mean.
Adam lived to be 800 my favorite color is blue
and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi are fiction too of course.
Afet Cane killes Able, he goes and has a kid, but who is his wife? The Bible never said…
Gibsonrlz,
The Da Vinci code was written by extensive study and combination of many ancient Christian documents. If that makes it fiction, then that makes the Bible fiction as well. It’s just a combination and re-re-re-re-re-re-re-translation of a bunch of ancient Christian and jewish documents that a bunch of guys in the early catholic church thought were the best.
And to all you people out there taking this seriously, please calm down! Let’s have some fun with this! It’s about time fundamentalist christians learned to laugh at themselves!
-Brian
No other siblings either
Thanks Brian…all I did was ask if anyone had read it. sheesh!
and where did god get a name like Hallowed? That is a wierd name. I don’t think it is jooooish.
Brian,
The Da Vinci Code was written after extensive study of ancient Gnostic texts and HUGE LEAPS IN LOGIC about certain events. Even the author admits he just made some guesses.
The book is a good story but if you really look at it as an example of historical research it is a very poor example. Even the author admits to just leaving out parts of the ancient Gnostic writings that didn’t agree with him because he wanted to tell the story a particular way. In many cases he declares something is proved because you can’t prove things didn’t happen that way. Attempting to force critics to prove a negative is just bad…real
bad…
A good read and interesting story but not a great example of real historical research…
No discussion of Cain and Abel now; that’s for the next installment.
BTW, I’ll read the Da Vinci Code soon as it’s added to Catholic doctrine.
HAH. Someones time might be better spent looking at the origins of the canon as it exists today. Why where the Dead Sea letters/teachings exluded? What was the criteria for the Books of the New Testament?
etc. Can we say Gnostic? No better not lets try Fiction. — Stomps feet.
There are over 5,000 pieces of writings in all different languages dating back to within 30 years of Christ. Try Case for Christ by Lee Strobel a NON fiction
Here is some perspective…The Biography of Alexander the Great was not written until 500 years after his death…Also the Koran was not canonized until 500 years after Muhameds death AND is still being written on and used with acouple of different biographies…
The canon of the bible remains unchanged…it has more physical evidence attributed to it and it’s contents than any other ancient writing ever.
Gnostisism in its evolved forms remains the greatest heresy of todays church…Nearly every book Paul wrote is speaking against Gnostic heresy
DARN!!!!! I was going to keep my fingers clamped…i am outy, later y’all
Greg S., the Bible only says that Adam and Eve were the FIRST people, not the ONLY people.
Sorry Frank, had to do it.
Of course, “Our father, who art in Heaven, Timmy be thy name.” just does not have the same punch to it I guess.
Good luck on the reading, Frank. But beware; it’s a dirty, dirty book at times. The stuff David’s kids get up to? And those daughters of lot? Filth. The most amazing is Ezekial 23:20.
Also, make sure you read the new testament, otherwise you might mistakenly stone Ms. K for some alledged wrongdoing.
Be excellent to each other.
I certainly don’t buy Da Vinci code verbatim, but I do believe a lot of these scriptures were absolutely meant to put and keep women in a 2nd class subservient environment.
As with most of everything else, man corrupts according to his own agenda.
Unless it is all true of course, then we better all get our acts together and somehow get women to understand they are here purely for our bidding.
Otherwise, man I don’t know. People back then thought the stars were little holes in a big honkin roof over the Earth and the folks ‘in charge’ would randomly peek at us through these little holes to see what we were up to. You would have thought that the Bible would have explained that the Earth was in fact round and that the blinky things in the sky were stars, then again, all this nonsense surely would have provided much entertainment.
But really, why is there nothing in the Bible that represents knowledge beyond the period. Maybe there was, and the translators just edited it out. Stars? What? Everybody knows those blinky things are holes that they watch us through! Paul musta been drunk when he wrote this, file 13 !
Which would then make you wonder what else was missing.
Funny stuff Frank! I was a little worried going in, because unlike politics this is stuff that really matters, but you managed to be funny and not offensive. The comments got me concerned again, but everyone seems to have stayed, mostly, cool. Very unusual considering the subject-matter. Thanks for brightening up yet another Monday. Back to the paperwork.
Ah Frank, there is an important point in the first three chapters, not to be missed!
After Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they hid from him (so they thought) and attempted to cover themselves with fig leaves. (i.e., they attempted to redeem themselves with their own works.)
God was not impressed, and He provided them with proper covering – one that required bloodshed. Our own efforts won’t cut it…
Then the famous foretelling of the ultimate redemption – God “put enmity between” the serpent and the offspring of Eve – the serpent would bite his heel, but the offspring of the woman would crush the serpent’s head.
Fast forward to the end of the book of John for the fulfillment of that one…
Glad you’re in the word, Frank! Although the NIV would be a much more lucid translation for ya…
Hey C-Bob, what exactly would a person of OT times do with knowledge like what stars are? Get bogged down arguing w/people about something completely irrelevant to the message? Convince everyone you worship fire or something? Think of how much arguing goes on now amongst people with more or less the same data-base. Belief in God based on Him impressing us a long time later with some nifty out-of-era information would be awfully shallow. Might as well believe in space aliens with superior technology.
God has to work with where we are. Which isn’t terribly much to work with in any era. As a devout Christian woman with a law degree, I can tell you the Bible doesn’t oppress me at all. Noting the puzzles just lets you know God has a sense of humor in spite of us all.
o/
Bad snakes bad snakes o/o/
Whatchoo gonna do? o/o/
Whatchoo gonna do when He come for you? o/Heh! The Garden of Eden was a sting operation, huh? Does that make Cain and Abel a domestic dispute? :oD
Whoa. I can’t wait for the part where Moses drops the tablets. wink
“Hey C-Bob, what exactly would a person of OT times do with knowledge like what stars are?”
Very good observation. I use the same logic when discussing evolution. People that could not process the reality of what stars are could also never understand the complexities of the processes God had to go through to create man. But, he knew they were still going to ask “where did I come from?” So, he gave them an answer, a stork story, that would satisfy the curiosity given the understanding they had at the time. I made him, took a rib and made her. Easy and simple.
I figure he knew that someday, when we had progressed enough in our understanding of the world around us, we would figure out on our own that it was not as simple as all that. A built in test, that we would discover more about the complexities involved when we were able to handle more, and not before.
I’m still thinking that apple, papaya, etc. . . I could do with out. Lounging in paradise with everything at my feet? wouldn’t want to mess that up for a piece of fruit, just saying . . .
P.S. Frank, you got yourself a lively debate of biblical proportions here today!
Hi Random M. Well, seriously, women have been, and many are still today, very opressed.
And I will celebrate when women are truely ‘free’ and equal. I’ll be dead by then, probably from stress caused by women getting back at women for centuries of opression, but what the hey.
Anyway, the Bible explains the supernatural – no? What could be more difficult to understand than that? Stars? See that big orange ball? Them things at night are just a whole big bunch more of those, only further away.
🙂
Rock on Women!
So Frank, on which day did God create beer? And what was he thinking when he created the hangover?
Wow DaVinci Code stuff.
The big beef I had with it is the lying about what is contained in DaVinci’s paintings. He compares the the hand of the angel in Madonna of the Rocks, saying it is “exactly” like Peter’s hand in the Last Supper. But if you look it is not exactly by any stretch of the imagination.
Similarly, in the two copies of Madonna of the Rocks, their arguments are not borne out by the fact that 1. DaVinci was originally told to paint a nativity scene, 2. his original drawings which were found show only mary and the baby on the right, no angel no 2nd baby. So if it is really a Nativity scene then that would be Jesus, still on right doing the blessing. 3. there is no record of the church being mad or wanting it redone, in fact, the only record is they were mad it took him so long.
So , all the BS about DaVinci is made up.
Other stuff, like the Nicean meeting where they decided which was inspired by God, is not a conspiracy as much as “hey, we have all these ideas that contradict each other, let’s get together and decide which are true and which aren’t.” We do that every day watching the news, it is not a conspiracy it is judging truth vs false.
The rest, like how the Church demonized certain imagery, and incorporated certain feast days, is pretty much true as I have always believed it.
“See that big orange ball? Them things at night are just a whole big bunch more of those, only further away.”
If he had said that C-bob, everyone would have fried their retinas looking at the big orange ball and then been like “Hey! What was that all about, some practical joke! ‘Look at the big orange ball!’ Thanks alot Hallowed!”
Oh I forgot, just because St John looks feminine in the Last Supper doesn’t mean it is a woman. Look at the angels in his paintings, they all look feminine. Even the angel in madonna of the rocks looks like a female, but is a male.
I would believe more if all the DaVinci evidence was not completely fabricated. Too bad he doesn’t go into the aprocryphal gospels and give his evidence from them, then we could see what he is trying to say.
Frank….if you’re gonna spend that much on a Bible, why not get one with all of the books?
The Bible in no way subjugates women. It does explain our different roles. It’s men who who twist it around to suit their whims. The important thing for women is to understand their God-given value and never settle for a man who sees them as less than what God sees!
Powerful men, like Pope’s and Emporers have always used their power to rewrite history to suit their needs. I find it not only possible, but likely, that this has happened many times with the bible. No other singal work could be used to control the actions of more people and the powerplayers knew it.
The Da Vinci stuff is definately debatable, and meaningless, since even if Da Vinci did paint the things that Brown said he painted, it would only be because Da Vinci believed them to be true, not because they were true.
I have been fascinated, though, by the information about Constantine, the counsil of Nicea, and the destruction of more gospels then were included in the Bible. And the rewrites of those. It is all very logical to me. So I have started looking for some of the works Brown references as research for the book.
And I think it is the resposibility of those of faith to do this. To see if someone did wrong them 1700 years ago by destroying much of the truth and replacing it with self-serving verbage.
If this happened, it does not mean that God is not real, or that Jesus did not exist. It only means that we are mistaken about much what we take as the “gospel truth”
If Mary Magdalene was in fact Jesus’ wife, and Jesus was in fact a prophet, chosen by god but not the actual son of God, (as was believed by all that knew him and for 300 years after until the counsel of Nicea), all that means is just that. Nothing more and nothing less.
You know, there actually was a medieval theory that God sent Jesus as bait to trick the devil. So after Jesus dies and goes down to hell, the devil starts kickin’ it old school with his demons and is all “In yo’ FACE, God! Where’s your Messiah now!” but then right at the last second, yoink, God pulls Jesus right back and doth exceedingly exult, “Thought you did! And I saved all of humanity, too! Teach you to go one on one against the Creator and Lord Almighty!” I’m paraphrasing from the Latin.
i too like this “frank reads the bible” thing. frank, did you know that if you had purchased the old king james version, you would have a copy that references unicorns?
Chris,
Yes I agree on DaVinci’s paintings. I just makes me more suspect of his other arguments, if he falls for such easily refutable arguments regarding the paintings.
But regardless, the problem I have with these consiracy theories is that all this has been known for long time. We all knew about the Council of Nicea, the Church never tried to hide it.
I think, if any of the “apocryphal” books had any real truth that spoke to people, they would have survived, since you cannot kill ideas that are true and move people.
To me, this movement is nothing other than people who look into Druidism or Animism. I mean, if you are interested in history that is fine. But to try to reinvent and follow an old religion that has been rejected by time and society is going backward.
I just don’t buy conspiracy theories that it was some plot by old powerful men. I grow tired of them, even conspiracy theories that take place now. Conspiracies never last long, they are always found out, usually by people involved in them leaking it.
Your meandering into religion cracks me up Frnak…and then I look over my shoulder.
For everyone saying God has a sense of humor…I’d love to think so but what proof is there really? None of that “just look at Frank or hairless cats” BS either. I don’t know that God has a sense of humor, and if He does, I don’t know what he finds amusing at all. Maybe He wouldn’t smite poor poor Frnak for makin the funny, but maybe He wouldn’t giggle either. Maybe He would just look at him a sec and then change the subject. I’m thinkin timing is everything here. hehe In any case, any of ya’ll feel like makin some jokes at the pearly gates, I hope I’m near to see what happens. Not too close mind you, just close enough to get the gist of it. 😉
The history of it is my only real interest in all of this PDad. That and the debate.
you mention that if any of these ideas had any truth they would have survived. I would say that they have survived, hence the enjoyable debate we have had today. The degree to which they have survived will be interesting research. I will poke around with it until something else grabs my attention.
Everyone have a great day!
Wow, I feel no desire to read these comments, as no doubt they are all going to be a clash of faiths.
But NKJV – good pick, Frank! It’s my preferred version, because its got an element of poetry to it. 🙂
Later all
Frank, why did you get a New King James Version? The King James version is beautiful but inaccurate, incomplete, and protestant to the bone. The Revised Standard Version is the one recommended by the Vatican. The NAB is the one chosen by the USCCB, so you obviously shouldn’t use that one.
Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!Please!!!
do the intire bible this way. O whole lot of potential comedy there.
Adam
“Still, I checked the list of Vatican approved books and the Bible was on it”
In fact Catholics are supposed to read approved editions of the Bible, to ensure that they don’t contain errors…not that I think it’s a sin to read a protestant bible, but at least a Catholic should be aware that the material in a non-Catholic bible may be suspect…
I’ve got a lot of Bibles (some protestant and some Catholic). My favorite is my four volume Latin Vulgate from 1863 :)…regardless I do recommend getting a Catholic bible with all of the books (Catholic bibles include the USCCB-chosen New American Bible, the Jerusalem and New Jerusalem Bible, the traditional Douay-Rheims [on which the KJV is based]. There may be others I’m forgetting). Anyway, I would recommend getting a Catholic bible. There are some paperback ones that are suitable for study. My agnostic roomate rather likes my New American Bible (which should tell you something about the NAB I guess) but he finds it rather easy to read and study. I prefer the traditional language in my Douay version.
From a lurker…
Wow quite the response… one thing though, while I understand the humor behind the “just good” thing, I think God’s point was not to rate creation on a scale. Good in this context means the absence of evil or defect.
I also like the notion of “approved” bibles. Why not investigate which one is most faithful to the original and go with that one?
Hope you read well– (just a thought here– try the book of John along with Genesis)
I say of you at my blog
Frank J. is the classic example class clown who hides extreme intelligence behind piss-in-your-pants humor.
Some various comments on a few things stated.
Chris –
[YOU SAID]- Powerful men, like Pope’s and Emporers have always used their power to rewrite history to suit their needs.
Yes, but usually without much success because of independant sources to check their facts. If this was not true, then how would you know that powerful people tried to change history? If they succeeded in doing this I suppose none of us would know they had. (ps…we call this a false syllogism)
[YOU SAID] – I find it not only possible, but likely, that this has happened many times with the bible.
Can you name an instance where the Bible was altered and no one found out? Can you then tell me how you know this happened? (see above)
[YOU SAID] – The Da Vinci stuff is definately debatable, and meaningless, since even if Da Vinci did paint the things that Brown said he painted, it would only be because Da Vinci believed them to be true, not because they were true.
Here we agree, although I think the previous persons points were simply that Brown invented facts that bear little or no record to the historical events surrounding gnosticism.
[YOU SAID] – I have been fascinated, though, by the information about Constantine, the counsil of Nicea, and the destruction of more gospels then were included in the Bible. And the rewrites of those. It is all very logical to me. So I have started looking for some of the works Brown references as research for the book.
I would point you to a few texts, first Bart Erdmanns work entitled “The truth and fiction behind the Davinci code.” Errdman is a prof at my college, pretty smart guy. As well, I would investigate McDowell’s “Evidence that demands a verdict 1&2” For a very indepth treatment of the biblical record. I actually think you might be surprised at the lack of ambiguity that actually exists in a 2 millenium old series of texts.
[YOU SAID] – If this happened, it does not mean that God is not real, or that Jesus did not exist. It only means that we are mistaken about much what we take as the “gospel truth”
It would also mean we can’t really trust anything about the story of Christ, nor much about history at all.
[You SAID]If Mary Magdalene was in fact Jesus’ wife, and Jesus was in fact a prophet, chosen by god but not the actual son of God, (as was believed by all that knew him and for 300 years after until the counsel of Nicea), all that means is just that. Nothing more and nothing less.
First the Magdalene stories are written much latter (about 150 yrs.)than the gospels, and have a definite traceable evolution. Secondly Many, many people believed that Jesus was God before Nicea. Reference Polycarp, Paul, Peter, and even Josephus, although there is some ambiguity about that last one.
Nick
For a good look at some of the claims made in the Da Vinci Code, go to the following website: http://www.dayspringcenter.org/resources/Deconstructing_%20DaVinci.pdf (I don’t know how to do links, sorry). I heard this guy speak at a Campus Crusade for Christ conference, and he really knew what he was talking about.
Strangely enough, you’ve hit on the Seventh-Day Adventist interpretation (which I subscribe to).
I watched some thing on the History Channel, and all these irate historians picked the DaVinci code apart piece by piece.
The guy was evidently more loose with his facts than John Kerry (the man who was running guns to the Khmer Rouge with Genghis Khan on Kwanzaa eve)
I have a serious theological question.
Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?
somebody in the comments spelled entire intire, i cringed.
Frank you didnt really need to buy a bible because you can read and review all translations of the bible at biblegateway.com
Plus you bought KJV, i dont have nothing against KJV except the fact that some people believe it is the only acceptable translation available.
I prefer the NIV study bible
So keep up the funny but expect more of the same if you continue to post about christianity.
it seems as though these post should not be on this site so in attempt to get back to normal I think michael moore is a huge piece of crap
and now this from our sponsors
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Whoa!
You made the largest mistake one could have made (other than going to see the river with Teddie on a date), that is being humorus with Catholics and the bible while having a conservative readership.
Most of them cannot handle it. My wife could not.
New King James Version
Apostate!
😀
Holy Santo –
Which NIV study bible are we talking about? I’m working at the Baptist Bookstore part time, and we have about two dozen kinds of NIV study bibles. You probably mean the Zondervan series. They have the best notes in my opinion (fairly non-denominational, though it doesn’t support abortion or gay marriage or anything like that), and it’s available in King James, New American Standard (not to be confused with New American) as well as NIV. I’m just curious.
Oh, and I have to agree with whoever mentioned Lee Strobel’s book Case for Christ. Case for Faith is pretty interesting, too, as it gets into why evil exists, that sort of thing.
Well, what was he supposed to do, read the first two suras of the Qu’ran and comment?
Then again, I see a “piss-in-the-pants” humor post coming out of that one, as a commenter said above.
That would be so Sistani.
NIV isn’t bad, but New American Standard is supposed to be more accurate.
NASB: Accurate
NIV: Easy to read
KJV: Poetic
As for the startling theological insight, I think you just about hit it. The thing is it’s more than a sting operation. It’s a giant scheme to let Satan make a cosmic idiot of himself. The whole reason he’s still around, rather than dead, is so the rest of us can learn to stop tolerating evil, which ties in to the whole reason the EU-nuchs are so annoying.
“so Sistani”
oh Lordy that’s funny.
I’ll also add that the King Jimmy is true to Greek syntax. The reason why it may sem so verbose and full strung-out participal phrases is that its imitating Greek. The KJV good for when you’re reading the Greek New Testament, to sort things out.
[Insert joke about “strung-out” phrases here]
Seminarians love Frank J. and Sarah K.!
http://www.whiteboydj.com/babygotbook/ http://www.whiteboydj.com/babygotbook/ <– totally apropos. Trust me.
Dude, Frank Got Book.
For more info on the ‘sting’ of the devil check out Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.
God is proving to all of creation that he can defeat the smartest, strongest, best in every way of his creation with the weakest of his creation, flesh.
Here’s some cool pics of chariot parts at the bottom of the Red Sea (Gulf of Aqaba).
Keep up the reading, Frank. And remember, Moses’ prose goes right to left.
dude, very funny.
Wow, 100 comments, got to be some kind of record?
does new king james have italics so you know when they’re guessing or making something up?
test
I listened to the Audio Book version of DaVinci code. Unfortunately, it was an abridged version so they cut out a bunch of the art stuff. Yeah – that’s like an abridged bible where they cut out a bunch of the Jesus stuff.
Anyway – the first few chapters blow all credibility of the book. SPOILERS:
Early on, the plot depends upon a bar of soap being availlable in a Men’s Room in France. Preposterous.
I’d love to see a job by job interpretation of Genesis.
Cop: It was a sting operation.
Engineer: It was a systems test.
Any others?
There were 11 spatial dimensions same as there are now.
Originally, I was like, “What do I need a Bible for? I’m Catholic!”
…Now THAT is funny – AND – true!
Tracey (the recovering Catholic)
Frank,
That was awesome! I had never looked at the garden of Eden as an entrapment scheme before. And actually, since Adam and Eve wern’t white, I bet there was some racial profiling going on there too. Sounds like the ACLU needs to step in on this one…..
Anyways, keep up the great work!
Nick, I love you man! You know how to have a good discussion. I fully intend to check out a couple of the books you mention. As I said, I am interested in the history of it, and I am not afraid to examine it as many here (yourself not included) obviously are. Let me respond to your response.
– Powerful men, like Pope’s and Emporers have always used their power to rewrite history to suit their needs.
[YOU SAID]Yes, but usually without much success because of independant sources to check their facts….
Correct response, except that obviously the ones we know about are the ones we have discovered. The ones we have not discovered are the ones still accepted as fact, because we do not know our error. This applies to many aspects of history, not just religion, and age old sayings are age old because they hold some truth. The saying that history is written by the victors is not mine, but a valid one. And again, only those parts of the false histories that have been found out have been corrected.
– I find it not only possible, but likely, that this has happened many times with the bible.
[YOU SAID]Can you name an instance where the Bible was altered and no one found out? Can you then tell me how you know this happened? (see above)
This is an oxymoron. Obviously I cannot name a time that it was altered and no one found out. If they had found out then it would be known. For this same reason I cannot tell you how I know this happened, because then I would be the guy that found out and it would no longer be something that happened and no one found out. By the same token, I cannot name a time that aliens visited Frank and told him how to make a SMITE laser and no one found out. Because no one found out. I did say that there were people suggesting that the bible had been changed. And people having an open mind and researching the possibility is how we will find out. Totally blind faith (which you do not suffer from) is a disservice to everyone and intellectually lazy.
We are in agreement on the Da Vinci stuff.
You direct me to Bart Erdmanns book as well as another text as resources involving Nicea. I will check them out. You also said “I actually think you might be surprised at the lack of ambiguity that actually exists in a 2 millenium old series of texts.”
And I just might be, that is why I am looking forward to reading them myself, thanks for the lead.
– If this happened, it does not mean that God is not real, or that Jesus did not exist. It only means that we are mistaken about much what we take as the “gospel truth”
[YOU SAID]It would also mean we can’t really trust anything about the story of Christ, nor much about history at all.
Exactly! Which is why to this day historians, archeologists, linguists etc…continue to tweak the history books as new information is discovered. As research continues, theories into how and why the pyramids were built to such exacting standards keep changing, for example. From events occurring in biblical times to the modern era, things that were believed to be true have been adjusted as new information is discovered. I could not begin to start citing the number of times this has occurred, nor should I need to. As you said, history is written falsely, but almost never without eventually being found out. That ‘finding out’ occurs all the time. There is no reason to think that it has not or could not happen with biblical texts.
and finally!!!!
If Mary Magdalene was in fact Jesus’ wife, and Jesus was in fact a prophet, chosen by god but not the actual son of God, (as was believed by all that knew him and for 300 years after until the counsel of Nicea), all that means is just that. Nothing more and nothing less.
[YOU SAID]First the Magdalene stories are written much latter (about 150 yrs.)than the gospels, and have a definite traceable evolution. Secondly Many, many people believed that Jesus was God before Nicea. Reference Polycarp, Paul, Peter, and even Josephus, although there is some ambiguity about that last one.
I do not know, factually, any more than I believe you do that many many people believed in Christ’s divinity before the meeting in Nicea where they allegedly decided to create his divinity. ANd referencing the bible as historical record is, I am afraid, no good to me, as the it is the question of whether the bible was altered to create said divinity that we are discussing. The bible being factual because the bible says it is factual is simply not enough, given the allegations that the bible is, in fact, false. Obviously if Constantine did create Jesus’ divintiy because he was creating a hybrid religion to appease both the Sun worshippers (who worshipped on SUNDAY) and the new (300 year old) Christians (who worshipped on Saturday) then there would be evidence in the bible establishing Jesus’ divintiy, that is the whole question regarding Nicea.
Whew! I have to do some work now. Nick, thanks again for the great information and book suggestions!
Protagonist : the KJV is not the same meter as Greek syntax…KJV is in iambic PENTameter and Greek poetry is in TRIameter….
The KJV is true to the original texts in that it is in the common language of the time it was written. The original manuscripts are in common languages.
So a modern translation actually is more true to the original writings.
Sorry for you elitists out there who think they are smarter when they are using KJ.
I think we should all honestly think about what the word “good” really means. To us it’s a B on a test but look at what Jesus said to the rich young ruler:
Matthew 19:16-17 – Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
And thus we can then ask ourselves, if only God is good then what does that make me? Have I done as Jesus suggests? Have I kept the commandments? Let’s find out…
Answer from an honest heart: Ever lied (even once)? Stolen (the value is irrelevant)? Then you’re a lying thief. Bad news huh? There’s more. Have you had sex out of marriage? If so, you’re a fornicator. Jesus said, “Whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart.” If you have hated someone, the Bible says you’re a murderer. What’s more, you have a conscience (con-science means “with knowledge”), so when you sin, you do it with knowledge it’s wrong.
Bearing in mind that God is perfect (good), and that He has seen your thought life, when you stand before Him on Judgment Day will you be innocent or guilty? You know you will be guilty, and end up in Hell. Perhaps you don’t believe that. That means there’s more bad news for you, because it will happen anyway no matter what you believe. That brings us to the good news: “God commended His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.” Jesus Christ took your punishment, then He rose from the dead and defeated the grave. That’s good news because if you repent and trust Him, God will forgive you and grant you everlasting life – what better news could there be! So, read the Bible daily and obey what you read, and God will never let you down.
(much of this taken from this site–> http://www.wayofthemaster.com)
KJV was good enough for Jesus, and it’s good enough for me!
KJ was wacky, by the way.
When my little girl was 3 I helped her memorize the Lord’s Prayer but instead of saying “Our Father, Who art in Heaven” she would say “Our Father, Who farts in Heaven”!!! We wouldn’t let her say it in front of the church until she fixed that part!!
there is a theory that Shakespear was actually the group of writers compiling the KJV or something of that sort or King James was Shakespear or King James had a Spear made for himself…
Kitty Kitty
That is too funny!
Cheese_Hour said to Holy Santo
Which NIV study bible are we talking about?
I was refering to zondervan NIV study bible, it translates from the best greek manuscripts and where there is a word in questions it gives the other possible words and the reason for all uses and has the best notes that i have seen, but thats not to say that any bible other than my preference is wrong but… whatever
Posted by at February 7, 2005 10:49 PM
SPOILER
The thing about Da Vinci Code that really blew it out of the water for me was how the primary charecters were all secure in their knowledge Jesus was a mere man, yet at the same time were willing to do almost anything to have the opportunity to worship his wife as a … no as THE Goddess.