Now you can be asking Jesus if children’s books make up for murder.
I’m thinking that answer is “No.”
At one past midnight, Tookie Williams will be beaten to death with baseball bats. In a recent 6 to 3 Supreme Court ruling, it was concluded that death by baseball bats is cruel, but baseball bats being used as clubs is quite usual, so the penalty does not violate the Eighth Amendment since it is not cruel and unusual.
I think Tookie needs a cookie, but rather than chocolate chips, it should have rat poison pellets.
i got a feeling that tookie won’t be anywhere near jesus to ask him any questions
“where do bad folks go when they die, they don’t go to heaven where the angels fly, they go to a lake of fire and fry, won’t see um again til the fourth of july”
The Holy Spirit’s message on The Christian Prophet blog today says that as long as Tookie lives on earth he pays the price for his mistakes, but when no longer living on earth he is totally forgiven and free.
Sorry Christian Prophet, you have misinterpreted Scripture. There are a few sins for which there is no forgiveness . . . ever! (See Cain)
A Christian Prophet,
I don’t think Jesus died on the cross so we are all now free to run around as thugs with no consequences. If He did, I’d argue that He undo that.
Wake up people, Jesus is just a figure from a very successful novel called the bible. It’s all fictious, there’s no such thing like heaven, hell, god, jesus, god or whatever.
Prove it mephi.
The ten commandments clearly dictate that “thou shall not kill”. God didn’t distinguish between gang murder and state-sanctioned murder. Oh, and while we’re quoting the bible:
Matthew 5:38-41 — You have heard it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile.
Luke 6:27, 37 — Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you…. Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Jeb, that’s for personal stuff. I’ve heard it argued – and tend to agree – that when it comes to public safety, government, etc, then you owe it to society to get rid of these people. (This has no bearing on the morality of the death penalty – that’s another debate.)
Jeb: “Thou shalt not kill” means murder (ie, unlawful killing; killing of the innocent).
Not “kill anyone for any reason ever”.
That it’s translated as “kill” in the KJV doesn’t change what the original says.
(Or, for that matter, it doesn’t change why God is quite happy to let various sorts of killing occur, such as for violation of the Levitical law in the Pentateuch. Such as, oh the punishment for murder: “And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.”.)
Come on. It’s not like you need a Divinity degree to know this stuff. I’m an atheist and I know it. What gives?
“Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.”
Genesis 9:6 (NIV)
Here you go.
1. Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
2. Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.
3. Exodus 31:15: Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
4. Exodus 21:15: He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
5. Exodus 21:17: He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
6. Exodus 22:19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
7. Leviticus 20:13: If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.
8. Leviticus 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.
9. Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.
10. Malachi 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, … behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.
Jeb,
“God didn’t distinguish between gang murder and state-sanctioned murder.”
True. But not all killing is murder. Killing in self-defense is not murder. Executing a death sentence on a murderer is not murder. (Unless you want to make the author of the Pentateuch a schizoid, by forbidding all killing on one page and mandating capital punishment for various offenses on the following pages.)
I refer you to Romans ch. 13, v. 4 (KJV):
But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
How does the civil authority use a sword to “execute wrath” on a murderer, other than to chop him up? Swords aren’t for tickling.
Matthew 5 and Luke 6 are directed to individuals. Caesar — the civil authorities — are subject to different rules.
Although you’re correct to state that “state sanctioned murder” is wrong — in the sense that extrajudicial murder (disappearances, Stalinist purges, etc.) are not proper exercises of the civil power to punish evil, but rather just plain murder.
TheProudDuck and Buzz kicketh *ss!
I just want to pose some questions. If you’re killing him for this reason: “that when it comes to public safety, government, etc, then you owe it to society to get rid of these people.” you’d hope our judicial system would first consider whether he does pose a threat to public safety or society. Do you guys think he poses a threat? Also, I’m not saying he should go free – no murderer should – but what do we achieve by delivering death to this man?
MarkM
Two things.
First, you uphold the law of the land. This is the penalty the voters of California decided should apply to this type of crime. (as have many other states)
Second, while rare, convicted killers do escape. This happened in Texas just last year, I believe. Convicted killers kill other inmates. Covicted killers kill guards. This doesnt happen after they are executed.
There are many good arguements against the death penalty, but I think after a trial and conviction the question of whether or not he poses a danger to society has been answered.
“but what do we achieve by delivering death to this man?”
We do justice.
One of the marks of a civilized society is that the punishments it inflicts are appropriate to the crimes for which they are inflicted.
That works both ways. Just as you shouldn’t give a man a life sentence for running a red light, you shouldn’t undersentence a murderer, by imposing a punishment that is different in its substance from his crime.
Murder is different from other crimes in that the damage it does is unlimited and can’t be undone. I don’t believe it’s sufficient to impose a punishment for murder that differs only in degree from the punishment inflicted for a crime that involves a more finite loss, like burglary or securities fraud or what have you. The murder victim is deprived of literally everything he is; the murderer should likewise not be left with anything.
Looking at his public record, so to speak, I don’t think he’d move to kill another inmate or even attemt to escape (he says that he is accepting of whatever fate is deemed just recourse for his actions). Also, in response to “we do justice” I feel we would only be turning the crime around upon the perpetrator (literally robbing the house of a thief may sound fair to some but I believe in the idea of two wrongs not making a right). I know it must be painful for a victim’s family to see a man marked for death escape his judgment, but I believe ‘Justice’ must be impartial and not take victims’ personal wishes into account.
Agh that sounds badly worded but what I’m trying to say is that yeah ok im against capital punishment. I kind of want to make a pro-life joke here too but then im just asking for being flamed. Apologies to all!
MarkM You are not robbing a thief’s house, you are reclaiming property that is rightfully another’s. Now in the case of murder what can be reclaimed? Unfortunately nothing, as such all that is left is pure justice and therefore the penalty for murder is death. Stanley Williams being put to death is justice for the sake of justice as there is no other way to reconcile his actions. No amount of good works will undue his crimes. In the end the Lord will judge and if he has repented, eternal salvation will be his. Whether a christian or atheist no one can escape the consequences of their actions.
Presumably this isn’t the place for such a debate but I believe that the death penalty isn’t a legally justifiable punishment. That’s just my own interpretation of the law and how morality should fit into it. Anyways, in regards to reimbursing one who has sustained damages, since you admit capital punishment can’t accomplish that – it’s not going to recoup the loss of life – why does it subsequently become the ‘pure justice’ solution? Are we trying to make ourselves feel better that a killing man is now going to be killed, or does it really seem more just than life in prison as a citizen with no legal rights? I feel the former resonates with most people consciously or unconsciously, but I’m not assuming you support the death penalty for either of those reasons, JoeB.
Longwinded, sorry. In short, why do you support the death penalty?
Jesse Jackson has weighed in on the matter, but as an advocate for black victims of justice, whose side is he on?
“Sorry Christian Prophet, you have misinterpreted Scripture. There are a few sins for which there is no forgiveness . . . ever!”
Actually I think murder isn’t one of those sins. If Tookie did somehow -get saved- as Christians like to put it, it wouldn’t be unreasonable if you met him in Heaven.
Dangit, Garrett O’Hara! You beat me to it 🙂 Here it is again, anyway:
“Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”
I couldn’t agree more. Maybe Tookie can start a new crips gang with Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Che.
The only sins that are not forgiveable would be –
Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, Jesus alerted the Pharisees to the possibility of them committing this unpardonable sin when they accused Him of driving out demons by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of demons. (see Matthew 12:22-32 and Mark 3:22-30).
The other would be complete rejection of Christ.
As far as being saved and being in Christ’s presence, I have a hard time believing that because I have seen no outward appearance of repentance, attitude, or actions that have shown me that he was truly sorry and he has repented of his Sin and has put his faith/trust in Christ.
I have seen no statement of faith publicly from this man other than people saying he has published books and encouraged others to stay out of gangs. Last time I checked works based righteousness doesn’t save your soul, period!
Of course the final judge of a repentant heart that has put it’s faith in Christ for salvation will be Christ’s alone.
All I have to say is good riddens. Supreme court just said they will not listen to the case (again). Michael Savage has posted pics of the murders on his website, I haven’t looked, but the point is to see what this murderour heathin did.
You can write nice children books, how sweet, but that can’t get you out of your sentence, he must die.
This is a moral point and it has to be followed through. Tomorrow at 12:01 AM, closure will be accomplished, for the families, the guards, and the citizens, that can have confidence that our legal system works.
I will say a prayer for the man, that his death is not nearly as painful for him as his victims or victims families, but do take closure that our system works.
The reasons to support the death penalty are threefold:
1. Specific deterrence: It is very rare for dead murderers to kill again. And yes, killers do escape prison and kill again, as well as murdering guards and fellow prisoners. In fact, prison guards know to be very careful with death row inmates, because they have nothing to lose by killing again.
2. General deterrence: The death penalty, if applied consistently, is a powerful encouragement not to commit murder. If you’re committing a felony that is punishable by life imprisonment, why not kill the witnesses while you’re at it? Without the death penalty, there’s no reason not to.
3. Justice: The victims are dead. Gone. Without jury, judge, appeals, or a chance to say goodbye. It is simple justice (though certainly not pleasant) that the man who did this to them also gives up his life.
The left amazes me on this one. How can they say he repented, and nominate him for a nobel prize (further degrading the award), when he has never apologized for committing the murders, and maintains his innocence? He apologized for starting the crips, and getting kids involved in crime. His book was supposed to discourage kids from getting involved in gangs. But when has he ever apologized for killing 4 people (and probably more)? Why does an unrepentant cold-blooded killer like that deserve our mercy?
MarkM I support the death penalty because I see it as the state’s lawful duty to protect the citizenry. As was pointed out earlier, many objections of morality to the death penalty focus at the individual level and are inappropriately applied to what is a lawful process. However, this is not the case when the penalty has been decided by a lawful system designed to afford all reasonable rights (rights, by the way, which were denied the victims). As a saying goes “facts are stubborn things” and here are a few facts. A dead murder can not murder again (death row inmates have murdered guards and escaped), the death penalty can be and has been an effective deterrent; one may argue to what degree but it is had to argue it is not effective (see the above reason listed first as definitive proof) thirdly, on the terms of pure justice what justice would you give the victims relatives? At least one is asking for his death, some may call this vengeance, and it may be it could also be a burning desire for justice as felt by a great personal belief on part of that victim’s family member. How are we to decide? I prefer to take on face value their desire for justice; to doubt them is to disrespect the memory of their lost one. These are the reasons I support the death penalty in this case.
Civil authorities do have a mandate to utilize the death penalty to rid society of persons who are a danger to the well being of those under the care of said civil authorities.
That being said however, in this day and age (with our prison systems, e.g.) there really is no reason to execute anyone. We certainly can keep dangerous individuals far from the reaches of public society without taking their lives.
As such, I personally am opposed to all state sanctioned executions in countries that can afford to protect its citizens via non-lethal means.
The key is to remember that Justice is God’s responsibility, and I for one will gladly let Him do that task. Ours is to forgive and preach the message of forgiveness.
The liberal left media is also advocating RIOTS once Tookie is put to death, they are actively encouraging this man’s supporters to go out and create an uproar by mentioning “RIOT” every 20 minutes(or so) on nearly every network.
I think Arnold needs to have the National Guard ready right the frick now….
The death penalty is the perfect deterrent.
If you don’t believe it, name ONE crime an executed criminal has committed POST execution.
Jesus submitted to the death penalty.
For those who believe that Jesus is a myth, or the Bible is a myth, or whatever, here’s how I like to explain it:
I’d rather live like there IS a God, and be wrong, than to live like there ISN’T, and be wrong.
If this dude wasn’t black, nobody would give a damn. Notice the only murderers of whom Hollywood seems concerned are black killers.
A white boy named “Clyde” from Alabama just doesn’t have the appeal of a jive-ass black charlatan waxing poetically about good and evil to fawning white screwballs.
“in this day and age (with our prison systems, e.g.) there really is no reason to execute anyone. We certainly can keep dangerous individuals far from the reaches of public society without taking their lives.” – Pedrito
It may keep them from the general public, but how about those of us who have to CARE for these “dangerous individuals”?? We have families we want to go home to. I’ve met literally thousands of criminals that, after coming to jail, have (reformed, changed, won’t do it again, are really sorry, made mistakes) Take your pick. Many of them find themselves back in jail, time and time again. And the worst of the worst – the ones that will never get out – are many times, the worst to deal with – they have nothing more to lose…
For the record, to those who keep hinting otherwise… Tookie Williams DID have plans to escape at one point, and DID have plans to murder a witness (who was also in prision).
First, to all people reading this who insist that Jesus was one of the leading characters in the winner of the best fiction category for the first century writers union; you may very well be right, I cannot prove you wrong.
You had best remember that 2000 years later well over half of the people in this country look to that same prize winning book for everyday moral and ethical guidance. What ever you think of The Bible, scripture or fable, you should be familiar with it’s text because so many Americans and many others around the world read it cover to cover desparately looking for help, answers, and just plain comfort.
I don’t claim to be a biblical scholar but I do think Jesus’s answer to the pharasee’s trick question about whiether taxes paid to the Roman government superceded the tithe that was expected to go to the Temple contains a germ of truth that is relevant to this case. Jesus asked for a coin and then showed the Caesar’s face on the obverse to the crowd saying, “Render unto Caeser that which is Caesar’s, and unto the Lord what is the Lord’s.”
Like many of Jesus’s utterances, I believe he was talking about more than money. I believe he was talking about the separation between the debts a person physically owes to society and the debts his spirit owed to the spritual relm.
For trangressionns committed in the physical word against other members of society it would be perfectly proper for a person to forfiet the life of their physical body. The death of their body would have no real effect on their soul and it would have to answer for it’s sins in the spiritual realm and to it’s spiritual master.
Um…If I am not mistaken one of the people he murdered was a witness to the first 3 murders and an associate of his.
Why should society pay to feed, clothe and house someone when they have rejected that society and preyed upon it? These things are not basic human rights guaranteed to anyone. You commit a crime and all the sudden the society ‘must’ take care of you better than a law abiding citizen? That sounds fair?
The death penalty is to remove those people who have chosen to expell themselves from society and to act as a deterrant to others who may do the same.
He’s dead meat now, as of about 2 hours ago. (cue applause)
As for his anti-gang BS, note that the bastard wore “Crips Blue” all the time right up to the day he died.
Let him fry.
You don’t usually think of IMAO when you think of serious debate in the comments section. And congrats on your PJ-lanche, IMAO bloggers. Pajamalanche. Congrats!
I’m not a fundamentalist myself– and certainly don’t take the word of Leviticus seriously– but the couple examples I provided show that there is contradiction in the bible. Likewise, religious peoples have to come to some moral conclusions on their own, and perhaps look at actual examples of Jesus’ work.
So, like the Vatican (and the Roman Catholic Church is hardly a liberal organization, especially under Ratzinger), I lean towards the side of life in all cases: I’m firmly against both abortion and the death penalty. To me, whether a person is unborn or a convicted killer, they are no less human than the rest of us. The only time killing isn’t killing is when we are defending ourselves, IMO, because the murder isn’t totally deliberate.
The majority of this country supports the death penalty because they believe it vindicates the families of the victims. I think we’re wrong here: I’d feel no less like shit, because my loved one is also very much dead (still).
Will PETA urge he eat a veggies as his last meal?
Obviously. He’s redeemed himself, which obviously means he’s not a meat-eating murderer.
I think that you all are wrong because God forgives everyone who repents thier soul. Everyone has flaws and no one is PERFECT so how would you all feel if you did something in your life you wish wouldn’t happen and people still don’t forgive you! He did his time in jail and I BELIEVE that he deserved another chance but y’all BLUE EYED DEVILS go burn in hell cause y’all heartless and cruel!!!
Raymond said…
//but y’all BLUE EYED DEVILS go burn in hell cause y’all heartless and cruel!!! //
Well then it’s a good thing GOD is judging us and NOT YOU, Raymond, because you don’t sound very impartial or forgiving.
Raymond,
I agree with you…if Tookie repented, then God could forgive him. But you know what? I don’t think that it’s society’s job to ‘play God’ and forgive him. If I did something and repented and no one in society believed me…well, that would be very sad and all, but in my heart I would know that God forgave me. We don’t know what is truly in his heart. God does.
Tookie paid his debt to society. I don’t believe that we’re “heartless and cruel” and that we should “burn in hell” just because we stood behind the government on this. But hey, that’s my soapbox for now.
You all are missing the big picture. THE 9TH “WHAT CONSTITUTION?” COURT OF APPEALS said fry the bastard. If you can get that pack of Mongrels to agree he needs to fry, the lefties need to shut the hell up.
Um, 9th Circuit rather.
When it come to useing the Bible to prove your point (this is directed to all of those commenters above me who tried to do just so) Try not to use Iso-Jesus, that is, twisting and misquoting the Bible for your own gain or presupposistion…
Look in the Old Testiment,
God has people killed.
In Revelation, God has people killed.
God uses all things, including death, for his glory.
sorry, lefties but it’s true.
(this includes war…)
wtf are ya guys talkin
tookie is ok
and there is no god
POINT