My nerves can’t take this anymore; I need to get out of here. It so deceptively warm and comfortable in the womb… like they want me to fall asleep. But I can’t sleep… that’s when they come for me. I’m sure that a couple of time I felt some poking and prodding was them preparing the vacuum… sure of it! They were just waiting for me to go to sleep– but I was on to them! You won’t get me without a fight!
I’m so tired, though. I can’t keep alert like this forever. I can’t go on with this constant threat of death. Has it been nine months, yet? I want out! It’s felt like years–
Yes! It has been nine months! I can see the light! I’m getting out…
Wait! This could be one of those partial birth abortions! They’re going to suck my brains out, those bastards! Get your dirty hands off me!
No, I’m going out head first. They only do those feet first, I think. There, I’m partially out, but I got to get all out so they can’t kill me. Come on feet…
Yes! I’m born! You can’t kill me now, you @%$# bastards! I have legal protections now. I’m a person, you @%$# psychos! And…
No… is that Dutch they’re speaking? No, Lord, no. I’ve been born in the @%$# Netherlands! What does that doctor have in his hands? Is it something to euthanize me with?
When will the Sword of Damocles ever be removed from above my head?!
Sad, sad. And first.
please excuse me while I go and cry.
Next thing you know the monsters will be going after the “terrible twos” because they’re so obstinate. Jerks.
Can you say “eugenics”? Freakin’ nazi asshats.
Jonag,
Peter Singer, famed ethicist, has already recommended “murdering” children as late as 5 years of age.
This is why I read you every day, Frank. I hope that many many others do, as well.
The woman who founded Planned Parenthood was a eugenicist. Are you surprised?
The Netherlands gets them at birth, and the French gun them down from helicopter gunships as adults.
Maybe we should Nuke the Moon, but a allow for a “short” round, if you catch my meaning…
What really scares me about this situation is that they seem to consider it an extention of doctor-assisted suicide(something that makes perfect sense). A patient posessed of rational faculties asking to die because they’re suffering from something terminal, incurable, and agonizing is one thing, but what those doctors are doing is simple murder, no matter what they might think. No person has the right to decide when another’s life is valuable.
Also, I reject the comments that witholding minimally useful care(“things that will extend their life by minutes or hours or days or weeks”) is identical to euthanasia. It’s possible to keep just about anyone alive forever with enough effort, and acknowledging futility is a necessary thing unless we want healthcare to be 80% of GDP. But that and killing an infant who can survive reasonably because the doctor thinks that that survival would be bad are so different I don’t know where to begin. So I’ll stop, and just shake my fist at idiot Dutch doctors who are sliming a good idea by misusing it despicably.
The frightening thing is, once you start killing people off because of their troubles, there’s less drive in the society to push toward fixing what’s wrong.
You know, it’s usually called “finding a cure”.
I suppose that gets thrown out the window with “Shall do no harm.”
wow. !S@E#L$F%E@D&I$T#.
Damned Netherregions. Bomb the dykes (the flooding control ones) and watch the wooden shoes float to the top.
Damned Netherregions. Bomb the dykes (flood control ones) and watch the wooden shoes folat to the top).
Incredible! Very moving!
At first, I thought you were channeling John Edwards-channeling an unborn child… and I was struck by the tragedy that the same political group that endorses suing doctors for not doing a medical procedure prior to childbirth also champions abortions performed right up to the the moment of birth.
So sad, and they just don’t understand why we are repulsed by these types of actions.
Well written, Frank.
Reminds me of a Steve Taylor song:
“We don’t understand
he’s not like we planned”
the doctor shakes his head
“abnormal” they cry
and so they decide
this child is better dead
I bear the blame
believers are few
and what am I to do?
I share the shame
the cradle’s below
and where is Baby Doe?
(Excerpt from Baby Doe (c)1984 Sparrow Records)
Calm down people. Read the article again. 4 infants in 3 years. They are not “killing” them right and left.
I am a doctor, so I may see this from a different point of view. When I started in medical school, I went in with the goal that death was the enemy. I would cure and save lives as much as I could. It only takes a little while as a third year med student to realize that death is not the enemy. That all life is NOT sacred. I know that sounds horrible but it was driven home to me by the following case. I had to take care of a brainless infant for 3 weeks while a 3rd year med student. The infant was born with a perfect body but just a brainstem. Enough to breathe and keep a heartbeat and nothing else. No higher brain function. The young indigent parents never returned after being told what the child was. (IE: the state was paying all bills for this case). At 25,000 dollars a day to keep this “body” alive in Neo-natal care. How much are you willing to pay to keep this baby alive? Do we take away medicine programs from healthy babies to perserve this “life”? Eliminate intra-uterine surgeries cause we can’t afford the cost because of the cost babies like this soak up?
There were many ethics committee meetings to detirmine this baby’s fate. Finally, all were agreement that the baby would be better off dead. But EVERYONE was crying in the last meeting. This is not a decision that was made easy. You think these doctors in the Netherlands are dancing around cause they get to kill a baby? To say you are an idiot is being polite. It is most likely the hardest and saddest thing they have had to do in their medical careers. Instead of condemming and mocking, put yourself in their shoes. It is the cowards way out to maintain a life indefinitly on machines, then to ease misery and suffering. Let the doctors and nurses take care of a brainless baby, an open spina bifida case where there is agony whenever the baby is slightly moved, you will not have to look at the baby and take care of it and be reminded of the brutality of life everyday. You can be comfortable in your little world as you scream, ALL LIFE HAS TO BE PERSERVED NO MATTER WHAT!
Ok, I am ranting here and memories of that past case have deeply saddened me. Oh yeah, what happened to the brainless baby? After finally agonizing over his outcome, nobody would administer a lethal dose. (As a medical student I was not someone who would have done it, by the way) Some were afraid of being sued also, if the parents came back and decided to try and make money off of their abandoned babies death. The baby did catch pneumonia and he wasn’t treated with anti-biotics. He died of “natural” causes.
I am posting Anon but have posted here before. If Frank wants to, he can figure out who I am. You want to e-mail me Frank I will talk about this more if you want. As much as I love your writings, I think you missed the entire tragedy of this issue in medicine. Any baby euthanized is going to go through an ethics committee meeting, have to get 100% approval of the PARENTS, doctors, clergy and administration of the hospital. It is not at the whim of a single doctor.
Sorry for the length of the post, but this has brought back memories and feelings I have long buried.
Anon but daily reader of IMAO and sometime post comments
“The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away”. Life is for God to take, not a committee.
The problem is, not the odd case in which it seems that the medical necessity is there. THe problem is the industry that will evolve out of it. Originally abortions were being done very scaresly, and usually for medical reasons, of course now the majority of abortions are “cosmetic abortions” because it is inconvenient for the parent/parents. If we do this in the womb, then out of the womb, then up till age 5, etc….we have removed a value of human life and replaced it with some pareto-optimal arguments for a strict utilitarian society. This is the slippery slope, but its not a fallacy – in public policy these things happen. Simply compare abortion rates 5 years after RvW and 15 years after.
The OBs asked us both times if we wanted an amneocentesis. We said no. We’ll live with the results.
No, “doctor”, you are wrong – 4 in three years is 4 TOO DAMN MANY in 3 years.
I’m not one of the one’s screaming “ALL LIFE HAS TO BE PRESERVED…’, but even a lawyer can tell the difference between causing a death of an innocent by positive action (lethal injections of muscle relaxants) and disconnecting life support when it’s obvious that nothing more can be done.
Where to draw the line of nothing more can be done is a debate worth having, but murder is wrong.
It is wrong when you kill a 90 year old innocent who can’t defend himself.
It is wrong when you kill a businessman in the course of a robbery.
It is wrong to kill people at a pizza joint with a bomb on your belt.
It is wrong to kill innocents. Either by abortion or euthanasia.
You as a physician should know better.
First do no harm.
No, “doctor”, you are wrong – 4 in three years is 4 TOO DAMN MANY in 3 years.
I’m not one of the one’s screaming “ALL LIFE HAS TO BE PRESERVED…’, but even a lawyer can tell the difference between causing a death of an innocent by positive action (lethal injections of muscle relaxants) and disconnecting life support when it’s obvious that nothing more can be done.
Where to draw the line of nothing more can be done is a debate worth having, but murder is wrong.
It is wrong when you kill a 90 year old innocent who can’t defend himself.
It is wrong when you kill a businessman in the course of a robbery.
It is wrong to kill people at a pizza joint with a bomb on your belt.
It is wrong to kill innocents. Either by abortion or euthanasia.
You as a physician should know better.
First do no harm.
off topic, Frank, isn’t “Sword of Damocles be removed” a Rocky Horror reference?
I mean, I know the original Greek one. Just askin.
Dave,
Not to my knowledge.
Yeah I’ve never heard about the sword being anything other than the greek myth
Life’s a biotch.
on another note, I figured that the pro choice people should have stood by Scott Peterson, after all, the baby wasn’t born yet, is that so different from what they want, the parental choice to take a baby’s life? seems a little contradictory for them to not throw their support to him in full.
— (everyone be advised, I am strongly Pro-Life! Just had to get that out there, not everyone reads the whole statement before flaming)
Flame o–
Aw, rats. :o)
I’m Dutch. Hi all..
First off, abortion and euthansia are so accepted here, that it’s very very difficult to even start a meaningful debate on the subject. If you bring up the topic, you’re branded a fundamentalist Christian and that’s the end of it. There’s only a handful of policiticans and exactly one broadcasting company that try to keep this topic on the agenda. That’s a very sad state of events and I’m not trying to find excuses for it.
And the ‘baby killing’ thing? Do you know that this has not been in the news in The Netherlands? I keep reading about it on US blogs, but Dutch media are, again, mostly silent.
That said, I do believe that these docters are no trigger happy death freaks. These procedures are, as far as I have been able to determine, done in situations where the childs’ life would have ended within days or weeks anyway. I don’t think a doctor could get away with killing, say, a child that had Down syndrome.
But still, I worry greatly about these developments in our country.
Before you all start to curse us, please be reminded that we currently have 1500 soldiers in Iraq, which is not bad for a population of 16 million, and we have been a loyal ally to the US for the past decades. It’s not all bad over here..
Dave in Texas, that’s a worthy decision, but what if testing discovers something that could be fixed? They can do amazing things with surgery on the fetus in the womb. Or what if the baby has a life-threatening condition and should have specialists on hand when it’s born?
Knowledge is a good thing. You can be pro-life and still want to know what you are facing.
The Sword of Damocles is hanging over my head….
…=is= a song Rocky sings in The Rocky Horror Picture Show. But he is, of course, referring to the Greek legend.
You know, I’ve got relatives who work with the severely retarded. Yes, there are difficulties with these people’s lives, but many do get enjoyment out of being alive. As a kid, I helped an aunt at one of the Kidney Foundation’s camp for kids… many of whom don’t make it too far into adulthood, even if they do manage to get transplants. Some were also deaf or blind. And they were happy to be there, and had fun and played.
And I’ve also known very smart people, who didn’t have any “real” problems, who killed themselves.
I’m not one of those who think there’s such a thing as “right” life. That if you can’t see, life isn’t worth living; or if you can’t move anything at all, life isn’t worth living. All human life has value to me. Even the people who think this kind of thing is a good idea, damn my Christian ideals.
Anon,
It was a doctor such as yourself who repeatedly told me that i should “terminate” my baby as i start my chemotherapy. This was before i found an oncologist who has worked with many pregnant women and have all delivered healty strong babies. All. Had i listened to that dr, i would be going through this knowing i killed someone small and innocent just so things would go “more smoothly” for me. I listed to my heart instead, and am doing all i can to give this baby the same chance my mom gave me, and your mom gave you.
shell,
you’re right of course. but in 1990 there wasn’t anything they could fix. It was primarily a test to see about the risk of Down’s Syndrome. And whether or not you would abort.
We wouldn’t have. But your point is absolutely valid…today they can fix defective heart valves in utero. Amazing!
Nigel Powers was right.
Anonymous said:
“Calm down people. Read the article again. 4 infants in 3 years.”
I suggest you follow your own advice. It is four in ONE year (2003) at ONE hospital. It is at least 18 nationwide in four years:
“According to the Justice Ministry, four cases of child euthanasia were reported to prosecutors in 2003. Two were reported in 2002, seven in 2001 and five in 2000. All the cases in 2003 were reported by Groningen, but some of the cases in other years were from other hospitals.”
For infants without any explicit advocate for the infant and with no anounced and followed review process anything more than withdraw of care is murder IMAO.
Withdraw of care is perfectly adequate in cases like that described by anonymous. (Drugs might be kinder, but the infant in anonymous’s example had no brain beyond that needed to keep the body alive, so this is questionable.)
They aren’t just doing withdraw of care in the Netherlands, what they are doing would kill a healthy infant. It looks like murder to me.
Sybok: Why did you do it?
McCoy: To preserve… his dignity.
Sybok: But, that wasn’t the worst of it.
McCoy: No.
Sybok: What happened next?
McCoy: Not long after, they found a cure! A God. Damned. Cure!
Sybok: So you killed your father.
McCoy: No! I loved my father…
Sybok: Then you did what you thought was right.
McCoy: Yes. No! Yes! I don’t know!
Dutch JoJo: Thanks for commenting, and sharing your concern about your country.
As far as triggerhappy doctors, I found that (under existing euthanasia law) nearly 1 in 5 of adult doctor-assisted suicides are of patients who did not ask to be euthanized, and elderly patients have resorted to carrying around written statements requesting not to be euthanized. Apparently a German company is planning to open a nursing home across the border as a safe haven for aging Dutch.
I just posted about a doctor who was recently acquited for euthanasing a woman who told him she didn’t want to die, because he acted out of concern for her well-being. Did you hear about that case?
::meep::
Noone is talking about killing the retarded, the deaf or the blind because — and here we totally agree — they can truly enjoy life. However, that most people, born with disabilities, can enjoy life does not mean that all can. This renders your comment useless as an argument against the Groningen Protocol.
::DougL::
Citing the article:
“The guideline says euthanasia is acceptable when the child’s medical team and independent doctors agree the pain cannot be eased and there is no prospect for improvement, and when parents think it’s best.”
* Infants do have explicit advocates for them (child’s medical team, intependent doctors and parents).
* Those aren’t healthy infants, they aren’t even just badly deformed infants, these are terminally ill infants whose life will be so horrific that anyone in that circumstance, and able to express their views, would opt for assistance in dying.
::Jonathan::
Could you cite your sources? This could actually be a valuable input into the debate since this seems to be antithesis to what pro-euthanasia advocates state to be the purpose of the law.
Dude, how do you make me laugh and yet feel sick to my stomach at the same time?
My nerves can’t take this anymore; I need to get out of here. The darn pre-natal care clinic was closed last year for lack of funds just as I was conceived(cut by the SOB neocons who say they’re pro-life – yeah, right, until you’re BORN, then your on your own amigo), . THAT was tough enough, because some bozos who don’t like my lesbian parents kept trying to pass some dumb-ass law that would have kept them from having a kid.
It so deceptively warm and comfortable in the womb… like they want me to fall asleep. But I can’t sleep… that’s when they come for me. I’m sure that a couple of time I felt some poking and prodding was them trying to get me to come out to live with in a crappy neighborhood where the schools really suck, and being a kid that’s powerless to do anything about it I’m just going to have to concede to my fate if they push me out of here.
I had a baby brother who made it to six weeks; he mighta been a nice little fella, but my mom went through a real bad patch with her diabetes. The docs said that if she didn’t abort that she could die.
So, she listened to them and found out that my bro had this congenital disease that they didn’t discover until the 7th month of her difficult pregnancy. They said that he would never know consciousness, would possibly experience excruciating pain if he did, and could be on a feeding tube for his entire life – which could have gone on for more than a year or two.
My mom cried at the prospect of having to do away with the little fella, but her medical condition and the baby’s seemed to indicate it was the best thing to do.
My poor Mom cried about this for days, and to make it worse she had to walk through a line of a bunch of barbarians calling her a baby killer when she went to the clinic to have the little fella sent to heaven.
If that clinic hadn’t been there, my mom would have lost her house because even though we have health insurance, it doesn’t cover situations like this. I can’t understand why because every other country in the world that calles itself a civilized society would pay for something like this.
I’m worried about what’s out there waiting for me, but I’ll make it.
Yes! I’m born! You can’t kill me now, you @%$# b@stards! I have legal protections now. I’m a person, you @%$# psychos! I’m GOING to survive this rough neighborhood, even though cops have been taken off the streets; I’m GOING to work hard and study so I can lift myself from poverty, even as some dummies out there say that me and my friends really don’t deserve to have a school that has windows and heat in the winter. I’ll show ’em!
No… is that a Texas accent they’re speaking with? No, Lord, no. I’ve been born in @%$# Texas! What does that doctor have in his hands? Oh God! It’s one of those old forceps extraction tools! His hospital wouldn’t let him get some of the newer technology because they were worried about the bottom line. Man, what a rotten break.
When will the Sword of the Neocon Damoclesians ever be removed from above my head?!
Adriana….”Dude, how do you make me laugh and yet feel sick to my stomach at the same time?”
That’s what happens when you abstain from sex and throw insults at abortion clinics.
“Judge not, that ye be judged”
Adriana….”Dude, how do you make me laugh and yet feel sick to my stomach at the same time?”
That’s what happens when you abstain from sex and throw insults at abortion clinics.
“Judge not, that ye be judged”
poivoise, I don’t think she said it as a bad thing. Of course somebody said to Frank “Youre website is a joke”. I feel a pattern.
Martin: The source for my previous comment was this Knight Ridder news service story. It’s kind of a long article, so I excerpted the most interesting bits (mentioned above) here.
So the Dr. says we shouldn’t be too hard on the Dutch because, even though they kill people for convenience, they feel REALLY BAD about it when they do it. Is that about it?
Jonathan, this information about doctors carrying out euthanasia on patients that specifically asked not to be euthanized is new for me. I need to study this some more before I comment. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Letting this be socially okay makes me sad. For a fact that this doctor can make a ‘mercy’ decision without the parents bothers the hell out of me, if that is true. Who decides? If this is socially okay, then I feel that we have cheapened human life. Just calling them embryos or fetuses, takes that away from them.
I knew something was kind of fishy about the euthanasia thing. Sure, it sounded like they were doing ‘good’, but the decision-making power did not reside in the person, or their family members. The most extreme case would be China, where the government thinks it is good for the one-child law. However, any babies born after the 1st one are aborted or killed by lethal injection. It’s just sad, and stuff like this will open the door for more crap like this.
Yeah, didn’t preview and should have changed the start of my comment about the numbers involved. I am suprised that only Dougy jumped on that.
All of the comments are appreciated.
Undercover hippie, where did I state that the euthansia procedures were being done for convenience? Where did it state that in the article?
Dave, I don’t disagree with your comments about innocents should not be killed, murdered or blown up. Thanks for equating “MERCY” killing to a terrorist murdering people in a pizzeria. You may not be able to tell the difference but other people can. So lets pretend that you are right and there is NO gray area here. Who pays for this? Are you gonna volunteer to take care of these babies who are in agony 100% of their existance? (Do a little research on the care of babies born with severe spina bifida) What medical programs will you cut to keep these babies alive? Since this is clearly a black and white issue, you have the answers to this and many other questions.
Anon
“No… is that a Texas accent they’re speaking with? No, Lord, no. I’ve been born in @%$# Texas! What does that doctor have in his hands? Oh God! It’s one of those old forceps extraction tools! His hospital wouldn’t let him get some of the newer technology because they were worried about the bottom line. Man, what a rotten break.”
Interesting comment considering that Texas Children’s, one of the world’s best and most respected pediatric hospitals, is located in Houston, Texas. They saved my daughter’s life when she was an infant.
Ack, it should have been Bob, that the last paragraph was directed to.
So, the statement Doctor you are wrong does apply here.
Anon
I’m dutch and I really like this website but this kinda makes me sad. I assume most of you derive your arguments on the pro-life debate directly from the Bible but since I don’t believe in the Bible that doesn’t hold water for me. (before you guys begin to burn me, believing in a god and believing in the bible are 2 different things for me)
Now, you guys would keep a infant alive no matter what. In this case, a baby that doesn’t have any chance of a life, heck he probably wouldn’t even survive the first year. And all this time he would be in immense pain. Just try to imagine it… Most of you when you have a headache just take some pills to relieve the pain. Now imagine that there are no painkillers for you around (After all, you can only put a tiny amount of pain-killers in an infant before he dies) and the pain is all over your body, hundreths of times as worse, you can’t stop it, and this for your entire life.
Now who is the evil bastard?
A. The kid’s parents who probably love the child and can not see it in any pain and the dozen doctors who are quite experienced at what they could do to treat the baby.
B. The guy that wants to keep the baby alive NO MATTER WHAT while he knows the baby is going through tremendous pains and his whole life is pretty much a suffering.
Now I put my money on B.
Doctor, pray, whom do we entrust with that god-like power?
Doctors kill more people by mistake in this counthy than car accidents.
A panel of experts?
Who would you trust with the life of your child?
The life of your wife?
No, the final vote belongs in the hand of God.
And terrorism by committee is still terrorism.
Stop being so damn reactionary, people.
DUTCH HOSPITALS EUTHANIZE BABIES makes for lovely sensationalism, but seriously, there are some birth defects where it is unspeakable cruel to prolong the infant’s life or even allow it to succumb to ‘God’s will’.
Ugh, now I have to look up birth deformities. Thank you so much…
Cephalic disorders
“The most severe of the facial defects (or anomalies) is cyclopia, an abnormality characterized by the development of a single eye, located in the area normally occupied by the root of the nose, and a missing nose or a nose in the form of a proboscis (a tubular appendage) located above the eye.”
or howsabout:
“Infants with this disorder are born without a forebrain – the largest part of the brain consisting mainly of the cerebrum, which is responsible for thinking and coordination. The remaining brain tissue is often exposed – not covered by bone or skin.
Infants born with anencephaly are usually blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain. Although some individuals with anencephaly may be born with a rudimentary brainstem, which controls autonomic and regulatory function, the lack of a functioning cerebrum permanently rules out the possibility of ever gaining consciousness.”
Sorry, if this is ‘God’s will’, then Allah must be high on paint fumes.
There are no byte-sized moral absolutes, people.
You can’t say ‘it is 100% wrong and unacceptable to kill an innocent person’ – what if killing one innocent saves a thousand innocents from certain death.
You can’t say ‘it is 100% wrong and unacceptable to steal’ – some situations justify taking others property (breaking into a pharmacy to get nitroglycerine for a heart patient, when doctors and hospitals are unreachable).
Hell, even rape would be acceptable in a hypothetical doomsday scenario where the only remaining human female is Rosie O’Donnell and the earth needs to be repopulated.
Killing infants, in 99.9999999% of cases is horrible, unthinkable, and should be punished by slow torture followed by beheading. Easing the passing of a defective human who has nothing to look forward to than a few weeks of horrible, agonizing suffering – days upon days spent being alive and feeling nothing but pain, experiencing nothing but torture, and then dying… To do anything else, especially because ‘the Church says nu-uh’ – is monstrous.
I agree with Sam… Saying something like “It’s God’s will” is too easy. This is the reason why there are terrorists, and it is the reason why I don’t believe in the Bible…
And even if it was God’s will, how do you justify for God to have that kid even born?
—– This might upset some people—–
“God” gave us brains to think people, not to mindlessly follow a Bible written by someone (aprox.) 1500 years ago. What we are judging about is not one of God’s wonderful creations. No matter how you look at it it is cruel and mishappen. If it is evil for us human beings to show some compassion to such a life and terminate it, than what does it make “God” for even creating this short life that will only know pain and misery?
You can’t answer that without using double standards, and that is why I think any sort of referral to the Bible or the Koran or whatever book you believe in should be left out of this debate.
I disagree with that, Gerritt, because what we’re arguing here is life itself and rights to it. That is firmly grounded in religious thought, as I’ll get more into in a minute.
First off, I think it’s monstrously unfair of those of you who are complaining about references to the Bible to assume that everyone who is pro-life is a crazy-ass Bible-thumper (and more than one of you has implied that in this thread). Knock it off with the closed-minded assumptions, please, if you really are the party of tolerance. 🙂
I think that the crucial question behind the abortion and euthanasia debates is this: To whom or what does a human life belong, and who created it?
First premise: I think (correct me if I’m wrong) all of us can agree that simply trashing something that belongs to someone else is wrong — you wouldn’t throw away your friend’s TV without making every attempt to give it back to him or her, would you? Similarly, that, in a sense, is why murder is wrong — you’re taking something that belongs to someone else. It’s more complex than that, of course, but that’s the part of it that’s germane to my argument.
Second premise: He who creates something is de facto its owner, unless and until he/she/it chooses to give it away.
If you believe that all human life belongs to $DEITY, because He/She/It created all human life, then it seems natural to me to oppose abortion and euthanasia both, because taking your own life or the life of the child is $DEITY’s right as its owner, not yours. If you believe that each of us is gifted with the right to our own lives by God, then it makes sense to support euthanasia but not abortion, because that baby’s life does not belong to you, but to it; you’re simply its caretaker for a time. If you believe that that baby’s life belongs to you because you brought it into this world, then it follows logically that you have the right to remove it at will (i.e. abortion).
The sacredness of life stems from the belief that it was created by a higher power (Exhibit A: $DEITY). If we created it, then it has no more worth than my television set, and I can chuck it out my window if I get tired of it.
I don’t believe that we created life. I don’t think we’re all that and a bag of chips in this form. I believe that the gods create life, start the process, so to speak, then release custody of their creations to us at conception. Parents are given the responsibility of playing caretaker to Creation itself until it is ready to handle its own care and feeding for itself in every sense of the word. Thus, I believe that a human being has the right to remove themselves from this world if they deem fit. (It has consequences for many lives to come, and probably isn’t a smart idea, but it’s their right.)
At no point do I believe that a doctor has the right to my life and soul. A doctor is merely a caretaker, not an owner, just as a parent is a caretaker, not an owner, of a child. That is a tremendous responsibility, but ultimately, the rights to my life and soul are mine, and I will not willingly permit that right to be taken from me. Only if there are none others left to make the decision will I permit the disposition of my life and soul to be in the care of a doctor, and tragedy indeed would have to befall me and those I love before that would happen.
There’s my two cents.
Re: anti-abortion = Bible-thumping
I’m an American grad student in England. Today I asked a Japanese student in my course if abortion was legal in Japan.
“No, of course not!” he said. He was shocked to learn that abortion has been legal in the US and UK for over thirty years. It seemed a horrific idea to him, as it is to Japanese society at large.
Abortion advocates in America who dismiss opposition to it as just a whacky religious idea should give second thought to why abortion is considered unacceptable in totally secular countries like Japan.
It’s the parent’s choice and no one else’s.
The mother and father conceived the child.
The mother carried the child.
They would invariably have to support the child after birth.
The doctor’s should merely follow the wishes of the parents and make any actions in regards to euthanasia humane.
‘God’ ‘Allah’ ‘Jehovah’ etc… has nothing to do with it.
These comments for the most part make me sick. As for anon, if you believe so strongly in your opinion, and are a regular reader and occasional poster, you should have the cojones to put your name to it. To not is lame and pathetic. Have the courage of your convictions and put your name on your beliefs!
In my beloved blue state of NJ, as someone referenced way up thread, the head of the ETHICS BOARD of Princeton University came out with the idea that parents should have 30 days to “change their minds” about a baby and have the right to kill it. A post-birth abortion. He didn’t say in extreme circumstances like cephalic disorders, he meant it just if you don’t want the burden. He recently changed his position that there should be NO TIME LIMIT!! This man is instructing the next generation of doctors! Absolutely sickening.
This is the kind of problems that we encounter when we choose not to value ALL life, that of the elderly as well as the unborn. I’m not just prolife b/c my bible tells me to be, I’m prolife b/c when I was only 6 weeks pregnant with this baby inside of me, I saw it’s tiny heartbeat on a sonogram. At 10 weeks, we could see the face and the fingers and toes. I can’t wait until my next visit, where we’ll witness kicks and flips that I still cannot feel. There is a tiny HUMAN in my womb…and G-d has entrusted ME to its care. That’s why I’m prolife.
ima mommy – My best wishes and prayers for you and your baby. May the Almighty protect and sustain both of you in the trials to come.
This report from the netherlands only proves what our side (prolife) has been saying for years – You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. 30+ years of abortion on demand has erased the bright line that used to exist. Now, euthanasia for BABIES that are “in pain”. How long before the mentally retarded? How long before the inconvienient? Then, how long before the politically incorrect? The old? The poor? Those with a different skin color?
Good Intentions have been cited for every Damnation man has brought upon himself.
First, do no harm.
Have any of you heard of Peter Singer, prof at Princeton? World magazine had an article about him in the Nov. 27 issue. He’s a very scary guy.
http://www.worldmag.com/displayarticle.cfm?id=9987
LC;
you are exactly right. I am a coward. Or, it might be the real reason that when I post, I try to be funny and stupid but I feel by adding serious comments to this thread would spoil my fun. So not only am I a coward but I am a selfish b*****d. I am not lame although I am known to walk funny when consumning too much firewater.
In cae you are wondering, I too am disgusted with the Princeton comments. I am pro-life. Also, not because of religion but my embryology classes. The fetus is fully developed at 8 weeks. How a supposed doctor could make a living off of destroying tiny humans is beyond me. Euthanasia and abortion are 2 very different things. If you don’t see that, then there is really nothing to discuss.
I believe Gerret had an excellent post, which explains it better than I.
Hey Bob, God was invited to all the committees but he never shows up. So, its up to us poor mortals to figure it out. So, when you talk to him, can you ask him to attend please? (That was sarcasm Bob, 2nd rule of medicine is too ease pain and suffering. But calling the dutch doctors terrorists is just goofy).
Anon
You’re right – they are different. But only by timing.
Both still are horrible.
God was there – you just DIDN’T BLOODY LISTEN TO HIM!
My heart bleeds for the child you described. I would never wish that pain on anyone. I know whereof I speak – if you are interested, check the comments for the same subject @ Froggy. My daughter is in remission for cancer. I held her while she went thru shit that I couldn’t. I know.
It still is not for mortal man to make that decision.
God saved Elizabeth’s life. While he was doing so, he saved my soul.
I was prolife before I was saved.
Moral absolutes rock because opinions are like assholes.
One comment.. the part about the parents’ role is misunderstood.
This is the way it works: the parents request the procedure (to have their baby injected with a lethal dose of sedative or muscle relaxant), then it’s the doctors’ job to approve it. There’s no way a doctor could perform this procedure on a child while the parents disagree with it.
But I’m kind of curious if a doctor could get away with it. If Jonathan’s right, he probably could 🙁
To everyone who believes that euthanasia is wrong becaues it means doctors are playing “god”:
If you truely want god to choose who lives or dies, why not advocate birthing children at home, away from the hospital setting. Then you get to see the who god truely wants to live or die. I promise you, many more infants would be dying than are now, and the lives of many more mothers would be put in jeopardy as well.
My mother works in a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit. I have seen first hand children that are being kept alive by doctors. Some of them weight less than a pound. Sometimes there eyes are still fused shut. Many of these children go on to lead happy lives. So are the doctors performing the greater good or evil. They are playing god in a sense that they are keeping something alive that would have clearly died without medical support. These doctors saw that some of these children had a chance at a good life, so they did what was in there power to keep them alive.
A few years ago, there was a couple that had a terminally ill child. It had undergone several surgeries but wasn’t improving. It could have been kept alive, and gone through more surgeries, but the parents decided it was enough. They decided that it would be more humane to allow their child to die in as peaceful a manner as possible. All support was removed, and the baby was given to the parents. They got to say their goodbyes, and the baby got to die surrounded by loved ones. I believe this was much more humane then letting it die on an operating table after another failed surgery.
If a child has no hope for a happy future or any kind of life away from a hospital, then I believe that it is better to end their life rather than to prolong it.