This whole burning buildings and killing each other (and so far, it’s just Muslims killing Muslims) over a couple cartoons is crazy beyond belief, but Europe can’t sit too high on its horse saying they were just practicing free speech when they’re still locking up some people for the same. Yeah, denying the Holocaust is dumb, but imprisoning someone for stupidity? People like that should be posting on DU, but instead they’re making this guy a martyr.
I think a lot of Americans would be surprised at the laws in European countries on speech and other things. Europe doesn’t have a Bill of Rights, and it shows. In Britain, if someone breaks into your house and tries to rob, rape, and/or kill you, you’ll be imprisioned if you respond with anything other than a harshly worded letter (but not too harsh – see hate speech laws).
I would like to see a catalogue of laws in European countries that violate human rights – limits to speech and self-defense, specifically. Unlike a lot of other countries, they can get over their primitive state through voting and not just military intervention (not that we should take that off the table). America and Europe should be friends, and real friends tell you when you have bad breath so you can do something about it.
I remember in class to get my Euro drivers license the instructor made sure that he told us never to curse at another person or call them a name because it was ilegal and could be grounds for a lawsuit against you. As I remember you couldn’t even give some one the California howdy without penalty.
And aren’t these the same people chiding us for the same things at places like Abu Ghraib or chiding 3rd world countries for a lack of a bill of rights? The double standard is astoundingly stupid.
“There are only two things which are infinite. One is the universe, the other is human stupidity. And I’m not so sure on the Universe.”–Albert Einstein
When I was over in England a few years back this old guy was going to prison for having shot an intruder. Not just any intruder though, he had been repeatedly robbing the old man. If I remember correctly, he was being sued as well.
Remember no part of the Constitutions gives rights because we are Americans. It Acknowledges rights posessed by all innately posessed by all people. There is no where in the world where people don’t have the same rights as we do. Simply government that try to supress them. That only works for so long even with the complicity of e rest of the world. ” [N]o arsenal or no weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.
Ronald Reagan First Inaugural Address, January 20, 1981. ”
And since this is a humor blog ” When you see all that rhetorical smoke billowing up from the Democrats, well ladies and gentleman, I’d follow the example of their nominee; don’t inhale.
Ronald Reagan Republican National Convention, 1992.
Maybe one day the Europeans wil be free too.
Unfortunately, it’s not “just” Muslims killing Muslims over the cartoons (though that’s horrific enough as is). By now, there have been a couple of dozen Christians killed by rioters, in Nigeria and I think in other places as well.
Should we liberate Europe? Again? From themselves?
Europeans being self-righteous and pompous? Pssh, never! They are the pinnacle of society. And remember: In Europe, it’ not a lie, it’s being nuanced, and the words only apply if they are protecting lily-white Europeans and Darkies be damned.
Europe is by far one of the most racist continents on the plannet, but they are very “nuanced” about it.
I hate Holocauset Deniers and Anti-Semites with a passion, but 10 years is steep. Austrian, blood-doping wankers!
Maybe one day the US will be free. Maybe one day it will let their people decide if they want to take a morning-after pill. Maybe it will let the decision be that of the potential mother, and not that of some cowboy politician.
Maybe, but not likely. Freedom was never really a Republican word.
[Frank J.: If we can’t sleep around without consequence, are we ever really free?]
maybe one day American will have integrity.
In the meantime, here’s how things stand
Maybe, but not likely.
Dissent! Quick somebody stifle it
Hey, I actually got Frankie to reply. And it really met my expectations! Frankie old boy, I accept your challenge to a duell.
I guess now you have come to the conclusion that freedom only allows sex WITH consequence. Hey, that’s the same kind of freedom they got in Saudi too. I guess “freedom” in your book includes the “freedom” to deny people freedom.
Sex without consequence IS a lot to ask of a nation still in its infancy as far a freedom is concerned. Someday, maybe America will evolve.
[Frank J.: See, it’s just about sex to these people. Freud would have something to say about this.]
Frank J.: If we can’t sleep around without consequence, are we ever really free?
—No. you’re islamic
anonymous coward, would you consider it stifling if I asked you try to be funny instead of just sounding like an idiot? I hope not.
I think we should deny that Irving is being incarcerated for free speech.
“But, I’m being deprived of my rights!” He screams.
“No, you’re not.” We can reply. “The whole story was clearly invented; a myth to justify the illegal British neo-Nazi occupation of Austria. Besides, did you know that Neo-Nazis use the blood of Austrian children to make matzo balls? It’s true!”
And:
“Listen, I’m not denying that a British Neo-Nazi wasn’t ever arrested in Austria, but it was for an unpaid parking ticket.”
In true conservative form, there’s a lot of jawing and not a lot of actual fact.
FACT: The British had a Bill of Rights long before we did. They had theirs in 1689. It was then amended by Parliament by the Act of Settlement in 1701. It too gave power to the people, similar to our own Bill of Rights. We authored ours, much after the French La Déclaration des droits de l’Homme et du citoyen (Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen) and the British Bill of Rights in 1791. We by no means invented the idea. Every Western country has some form of legislation that functions as, or is actually called a Bill of Rights. So does the U.N. along with several other conventions.
[ “And aren’t these the same people chiding us for the same things at places like Abu Ghraib or chiding 3rd world countries for a lack of a bill of rights? The double standard is astoundingly stupid.” ]
FACT: It’s about human rights, not the lack of a bill of rights.
FACT: Secondly, a majority of Americans are chiding the current administration over Abu Ghraib– and a number of other human rights violations– violations against our own Bill of Rights. It’s not those Europeans vs. U.S. It’s people that recognize torture as barbaric and evil vs. those that don’t.
Another good point Frank.The not so obvious similarities between 2006 EU and 1939 Germany may elude some. However I think we should allow the passage of at least one century before sacrificing hundreds of thousands of our young men (and now women) to save the Eurofairies from themselves again. At least the bad guys wore uniforms in WWI & WWII. God Bless America (& my Colt 1911 Lightweight Commander).
Funny I’m teaching the British Bill of rights in my government class today. These rights were deamed to be necessary to freedom in a democratic nation not inalienable the inalienabe rights are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You should take some time also to look at our restrictions on free speech as Justice Holmes said “words can be weapons and are not ok if they present a clear and present danger” or something like that in the Shenck case. Now if you want to talk about rights lets look at the 4th amendment and check it against the presidents NSA warrentless search program.
One observation from my brief time in Europe – you can convince people that they are “Free” if you legalize partial or full nudity in advertising and/or prostitution, despite crippling tax rates that make people slaves in terms of the hours worked for the government versus hours worked for themselves.
Even sharecroppers got to keep 50 percent, Euro-peons! Think with a different organ!
grimmel said: “Every Western country has some form of legislation that functions as, or is actually called a Bill of Rights. So does the U.N. along with several other conventions.”
1. That doesn’t mean it’s enforced or interpreted the same as ours. This Holocaust denial as a crime throughout Europe is proof of that.
2. Have you looked at the UN “bill of rights” lately? The second half is more like a socialist manifesto with such “guarantees” as the right to “necessary social services” and the right to “rest and leisure…and periodic holidays with pay.”
No, we did not “invent” the idea of a bill of rights, but we improved upon it. We set up a system that honored it. We enforced it. We made it work… Like no where else on earth.
Again, going to jail for your “opinion” is proof that Europe is far from a truly functioning “bill of rights.”
uh….He just got sentenced, after being arrested in 1989.
If you ask me, that’s nearly as ridiculous as their thought-policing.
Grimmell:
Wow. Impressive dates. Problems:
“On September 25, 1789, the First Congress of the United States therefore proposed to the state legislatures 12 amendments to the Constitution that met arguments most frequently advanced against it.” http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/bill_of_rights.html
Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen: “Approved by the National Assembly of France, August 26, 1789”
http://www.hrcr.org/docs/frenchdec.html
I didn’t realize that trans-Atlantic communication was so fast back then. Besides the fact that the “Bill of Rights” were based on the Virginia Bill of Rights, which were even older.
The original “British” Bill of Rights, from 1689, only addressed Parliament: (from Wikipedia) “The Bill of Rights 1689 is not a bill of rights, in the sense of a statement of certain rights that citizens and/or residents of a free and democratic society have (or ought to have), but rather addresses only the rights of Parliamentarians sitting in Parliament as against the Crown.”
We can have a p*ssing contest, but several nations moved towards the concept of the rights of the people at around the same time. The difference is, the US codified those rights in such a way that a simple act of Congress cannot overrule those rights.
I agree that it is about Human Rights. I believe that the difference lies in democracy versus republic: We are a republic. We follow the law of the land, which is the Constitution. From my perspective, the Europeans have moved towards democracy, which results in instability of law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Uh, just me again, but wouldn’t the fact that a person was connected to a known terrorist’s phone number be “probable cause”? “Hello, Uncle Osama, I was just calling to see how your Ramadan went. Yeah, me too, I have a hard time fasting all day. Your sisters say hello.”
Hmmmm anon,I always wanted to watch a duel with dual ells.And a Bill Of Rights while being subject to a “king” is worth the snot soaked kleenex it is written on.And as for facts,we don’ need no stinkin’ facts.We need to honor and uphold the U.S. Constitution,for U.S. citizens.
“but imprisoning someone for stupidity”
Its quite simple, you probably will shoot someone if he denies 9/11 or makes up a conspiracy theory, i.e. CIA did it (but you practically would rather make a joke about it first and shoot him afterwards).
There are just some things that are beyond comprehension. Holocaust for sure is such a thing. You just have to be a bit more precise when it comes down to killing millions of people. (or to make a imao-style joke: “Just consider the law suit.”). If you do not get that, do not try to grasp european behaviour, especially conservative behaviour.
All this reminds me of the fact that conservative or republican values aren’t something that came out of the USA exclusively. Its something you fight for in any country and you may loose at any time. Its always nice to bash really wacko liberals and lefties but being a central-USA-know-it-all small town conservative that knows everything about the world everywhere is the same as effectively living on the moon.
So let’s nuke it.
Got any tic-tacs?
I missed the part where all Europeans are called dumb.
From the Puppy-Blender himself (http://instapundit.com/archives/028742.php):
I MEANT TO COMMENT on David Irving’s conviction for Holocaust denial yesterday, but got distracted and forgot. Mickey Kaus, however, has it about right. I should also note that this further exacerbates the “censorship envy” of the radical Muslims — with European countries happy to punish some speech that is regarded as beyond the pale, the discussion has shifted from whether censorship should exist at all to when it should be justified. This is yet another reason why a general rule in favor of free speech is actually better for ensuring social peace than a set of rules prohibiting offensiveness.
Back to that “rule of law” thing, eh?
As a archaeologist that used to “deal” with Nazis in order to find Jewish God-radios that could explode my head, I can attest that I did not see one concentration camp in Eqypt.
Should I stay out of Europe now?
Belloq
Hello everyone,
Yes, there are some fooked up laws here in Europe. For instance: it is illegal to wear a nazi armband in Germany, and it is illegal to deny the holocaust in Austria. This is not exactly freedom of expression, is it?
But then again, Europe is a big place with lots of different countries and cultures. Please don’t hate us all.
Here in Denmark it is quite legal to wear the nazi armband, deny the holocaust and watch depraved porn while shooting an intruder (providing it is self defence, alas). See – we’re almost like you.
Someone wrote that we don’t have a bill of rights in Europe. This is true. We dont have a bill of rights, we have SEVERAL bills of rights. One or more for each country (except Britain, it seems). Here in Denmark we have the constitution with all it’s embedded rights and the European Human Rights Bill (or whatever it is called in English) is also Danish law. So we’re pretty much swamped with rights. I don’t know what to do with all my rights!
But yes, the British are quite silly when it comes to protecting innocent peoples lives and defending democracy against fascism. It seems to be illegal. Silly Brits. We Danes better go over there and show them how it’s done, just like in the old days.
To “Danish bloke”:
Seriously: “God Bless Denmark.”
Glad to count you as allies. May Free Speech win.
Holocaust denial is legal in most European countries as far as I know, it’s only Austria and Germany where it’s illegal. Germany in particular has some insane laws like being illegal to hyper link to the Horst Wessel song. When I was in Munich, one of the British expat websites deliberately broke it, but they weren’t prosecuted.
And David Irving was completely free to publish whatever gibberish he wanted in Britain at least. He sued someone for calling him a ‘holocaust denier and antisemite’ for libel and lost, but that was self inflicted as far as I’m concerned.
People talk about the Tony Martin case as if homeowners don’t have a right to defend their homes but this is misleading. Firstly, it was not a typical case as other homeowners have killed burglars without facing prosecution. Those that have been prosecuted tend not to be convicted. Secondly, the government realises that the vast majority of people in Britain do not want prosecutions for killing burglars. The law is in the process of changing, but the consensus is that proportionate force is legal. Only ‘grossly disproportionate’ force is illegal. Tony Martin lay in bed with a shotgun and shot the burglar when he broke in, and then told the police this. If he’d said that he defended himself with what was at hand, which just happened to be a loaded shotgun, he would probably have got away with it. Indidentally, the law has certainly changed to prevent criminals suing their victims.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/martin/0,,214318,00.html
If someone burgled my house, I’d have absolutely no hesitation in incapacitating them as efficiently as possible with whatever is at hand.
Of course, if you’re a hate filled Islamist in the UK, then you’re likely to get locked up or deported fairly soon, but then we’re not as anal about the whole free speech thing as you yanks.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1710761,00.html
God bless Denmark by the way, there are a lot more people on your side in this particular battle than there are against.
Not having THE Bill of Rights means nothing. Its like saying no other country has the First Ammendment. That may be so, — the Danes have no “First Ammendment” but they sure as hell did a much better job protecting free speech than we did.
On the other hand, having the bill of Rights does not seem to stop the US govt from numerous breaches of human rights. So all this Bill of Rights nonsense is simply a name game.